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Tuesday, June 16, 2009

The civil war is necessary to clarify matters

The Pavlovian response of the media and many well-meaning individuals is that open debate is always to be shunned because it violates the disciplinary code. This is a silly view and reeks of Stalinism.

Since May 16 I have been advocating a full-fledged, open debate in the BJP on the road ahead and, by implication, what went wrong. The party has consistently stonewalled all debate because those at the organisational helm don't have the intellectual self-confidence to either contribute or respond meaningfully to such a debate.

Consequently, the debate has been taking place in non-official platforms (such as this blog) and in the media. I was glad that Arun Jaitley wrote a though-provoking piece in Indian Express. I was also heartened by Sudheendra Kulkarni's offering in Tehelka (my response has become the subject of a fresh media controversy).

However, the seriousness of the discussions was broken by the out-and-out factional sub-text of Yashwant Sinha's "leaked" note to the party president (or, should I say, NDTV). My response to it in Asian Age/ Deccan Chronicle was considered by some to be excessively harsh.

I was amused that Sinha has called for a probe into who leaked his letter. TV editors I have spoken to have indicated that there were two parallel points of leak. The first was through an associate of Pramod Mahajan (who hates Jaitley) and the other was was the unlikely figure of a cerebral Rajya Sabha MP. I gather that the follow-up was done by a disagreeable journalist (one who signed the 20-points during the Emergency) whose nomination to the Rajya Sabha has been blocked by Jaitley on two separate occasions.

The same factional considerations were again at play Tuesday morning when the TV channels began the "breaking news" about Arun Jaitley's alleged resignation from the party. Considering that Jaitley resigned on June 6 as General Secretary after being appointed Leader of Opposition in the Rajya Sabha, what was the reason behind some people wilfully painting it as a point of dissent?

The answer lies in the insecurities of those who imagine they will be out of a job in December/January. The idea is to throw as much as possible on Jaitley, make him a controversial figure and ensure that he is not considered as a possibility for president of the party.

What some people are getting increasingly nervous about is the news that the appointment of Sushma Swaraj (as deputy leader in LS) and Jaitley was done by Advani in consultation with the RSS. Today's shenanigans were done with an eye to influencing the big-wigs of Nagpur.

But all these a rubbishy moves that have nothing to do with the substantive political issues. Once the party decides its future orientation, the appointment of the faces to project will follow naturally.

Also keep in mind there is one person who has kept himself aloof from the murkiness in Delhi. Narendra Modi's firm handling of a potentially explosive problem in Surat has won him praise.

Modi is being needlessly equated with Varun by unthinking media types but his is a class act.

Some of the comments to my earlier blogs have detected an apparent contradiction between my dislike of hardline politics and my support for Modi. That is because I believe that Modi will soon come to be accepted as the most enlightened and modern BJP face.

Just look at the regressive types who were trying to create a riot in Surat and you will see what I mean.

POSTSCRPT: In the Hindu Thought yahoogroup, Mr Arvind Lavakare wrote on June 20:

After quitting a salaried job in a reputed English magazine a few years ago, Swapan's livelihood may well be depending on his writings being published in a wide range of prosperous English newspapers which are anti-Hindu and therefore anti-BJP. If that is indeed so, Swapan simply cannot afford to project and push the Hindu line beyond the Laxman resha. Poor dear.

My reply to Mr Lavakare:
I have never had the occasion to get to know Arvind Lavakare personally. I therefore presume he does not know me, except through my writings and other public interventions. Yet, he has been presumptuous enough to make a series of personal attacks.
It began with some snide remarks about my education--which I don't flaunt but of which I am completely unapologetic. Now he has questioned my integrity. At this rate he will extend his critique to my ethnic or social origins.
I have no intention of affirming my credentials. To do so would be to dignify Lavakare's personal attacks as a substitute for an informed debate on ideas.
I merely hope that the attacks on where I write, who went to college with me and who are my friends are not in any way an expression of envy. It is a matter of satisfaction for me that I get a platform in the mass media (cutting across editorial positions). Engaging with the wider world is daunting but much more meaningful than gloating inside a sectarian ghetto. I strong recommend Lavakare also tries earning a livelihood out of writing for "a range of prosperous English newspapers". It could be a humbling experience.
Swapan Dasgupta.


173 comments:

Arun said...

Yes, this civil war is necessary. And for the same reason, the Sangh needs two parties - one Right-of-Center and one Left-of-Center.

This is all about expansion. The new party will sit in the space currently occupied by JDU, BJD and TDP. For the next decade or tow, it needs to be geographically confined to the 5 coastal states where BJP is absent, to avoid a clash of interests.

charuvak said...

associate of Pramod Mahajan, cerebral MP, and a journo desperate to become MP (as the latter signed onto the 20 point Emergency program...)

Names...names...Swapanda.

All this mystery is driving me nuts. :)

The Journo who signed onto Indira Gandh's emergency...I wanna know who !

doubtinggaurav said...

Swapan Da,

I have long (and by long I mean post 2004 debacle) wondered about the civil war (or catharsis) in BJP and somehow I am less sanguine about its effect.
While you are correct that instinctive avoidance from any substantial debate and instead relying on behind the doors chintans is the reason for the sorry state that BJP finds itself in. However the central leadership is intellectually bankrupt and I can find no evidence that it is capable of critical analysis and self interospection. I am afraid that this latest episode like the previous ones i.e. cover up. Which is why I don't think that passing the buck is the best strategy for failure. I will prefer that the things are allowed to cool down, and the adults focus on the reasons voters didn't vote for BJP in Lok Sabha while they have voted for BJP in state elections and how to rectify them.

Related to that I think Modi is a Non Starter, his nomination will incur the full wrath of secular right establishment and the prospective allies will run away like frightened horses. Sushma Swaraj is a better option. Of course this is coming from a guy who supported Arun Shourie for 2009

By the way I may sound rude but rare exceptions (BJP Supporter Oldtimes etc)apart the level of debate here is pretty disappointing though hardly unexpected

offstumped said...

Bang on calling out the media for its mischief mongering clubbing Modi with the other Nehru-Gandhi.

Aloofness from the civil war is onething but the point will soon come for Mr. Modi to speak up on the process by which this debate must take place and on the large question of ideology itself and agenda itself.

He made a brief beginning on it with his forwarding the idea of "Minimum Government Maximum Governance". He needs to expand on it further with a coherent and all encompassing view on how ideology must guide on governance. Last but not the least he must address the issue of Justice delivery head on.

The acceptability differential will still be there, its a hard call he has to make by being a True Karma Yogi else he will be denied the moral high ground.

BJP_supporter said...

You called for ideas in the previous post. This post is a clear batting for one specific person in the BJP and name calling of a lot of others.

The party should very well decide the new orientation. But why should there be 'appointment' of faces to project it? why cant there be a democratic process within the party to elect next set of leaders?

If this blog is going to be a part of the personal clashes, between some who do not have the guts to face an election in Delhi and some others who are bankrupt of ideas, then it makes no sense for a BJP supporter to hang around.

rone said...

these is all politics as usual .But what we expect from the new opposition leaders in the house Mr.jaitley and Mrs swaraj is constructive work.
Budget session is coming and i have not heard/read anywhere what Bjp leaders are proposing to the government on behalf of people, to be included in the railbudget and budget.

No Mist said...

this internecine bloodbath that is going on in BJP and will get uglier in the coming months makes me say ... unko kaisi chinta aur inko kaisi chinta ...

but all said and done this is for the ultimate good of the party .... five years are not such a short time that we can afford to procrastinate over the important issue of cauterization of BJP forever ... good that catharsis starts now itself ... after the dust settles within a few months or a year, BJP will have a new life, new energy and energetic identity ... in short a BJP that we want ...

Amen !!!

Oldtimer said...

Did you say: "I believe that Modi will soon come to be accepted as the most enlightened and modern BJP face."?

Well, be prepared to hear a lot from leftwing nuts pretending to be BJP sympathizers. Your blog is attracting them like fies to light.

Anonymous said...

Swapan da..U seem to be in brilliant form these days ( though I disagree with what you wrote about 'churlish' Kulkarni). Rock on!

G Iyer said...

Modi's silence (or aloofness) is being wrongly interpreted as a sign of 'maturity' and 'statemanship'.

Far from it.... I suspect he is just being a good politician (as he always has been) and resisting the temptation of fishing in troubled waters.

He knows that he himself is on a weak wicket in his own backyard.

His next big test would come in the Maharashtra elections where he will be called upon to garner votes for the party. Sadly it seems that the BJP's woes would only increase, not subside after the Maharashtra elections. And with that would increase Mr.Modi's woes....

I see nothing wrong in clubbing Modi with Varun. They are two sides (perhaps same side) of the same coin.

Prasanna said...

Swapanda

I tend to agree with my friend DoubtingGaurav

You have been long advocating that Modi has the wherewithal to revive the sagging fortunes of the moribund BJP.

No doubt,Modi has been relentlessly subject to vicious vilification campaign by the well-funded and organised 'cottage industry' that sprung up post Gujarat riots .The 'industry' has been a windfall for professional protestors and other assorted collection of leftist loonies.Surrogate media organisations of Congress Party have deliberately directed efforts at demonizing him.The agenda of the likes of Teesta,amply rewarded by the UPA Government,was to exploit the communal faultlines and fester the wounds already inflicted on the divided communities by the riots

To Modi's credit ,post the 2002 assembly election ,he has consciously focused on the agenda of governance and worked assidously towards the development of Gujarat.Even his worst critics need to admit that Gujarat has made rapid strides during his tenure.
Now to the main point of the post.

Depite his spectacular success in Gujarat ,you are better advised to abandon Project Modi.Any centre-right agenda with Modi at the fulcrum will be a non-starter and could prove electorally catastrophic for BJP outside Gujarat where Modi obviously enjoys iconic status a-Modi remains a highly divisive figure to vast sections of Indians

The danger of Modi led BJP is that it could be driven by its critics to occupy the far right space.Thats a dangerous space to occupy in a secular,multi-religious sociey like India.

Modi's appeal in my opinion is contextual and only if that particular context arises can he be potent.I dont see that context ctystallising anytime soon

Ideally i would have loved Modi to take over the reins of BJP leadership-his unimpeachable personal integrity levels,administrative acumen,ability to reinvent himself and that he comes from a section of society (OBC) makes him an alluring proposition.But i see Modi has a handicap in the larger Indian political landscape

As the perspective Offstumped has hinted in one of his Modi can take over the intellectual leadership of BJP (BJP president?).He is only one who is capable of seamlessely blending ideology and locating governance in the realm of ideology.For this he needs to do a la Sonia.Before Mataji Sonia made her supreme renounciation act she was a highly reviled figure.However the alleged act of sacrifice took away the anger that India nurtured against her.Modi can too renounce political power and concentrate on renewing the party

Prasanna said...

Swapanda

I was actually fascinated by an outrageous suggestion by one of the readers on reviving Janata like formation except that this time around it will have a centre-right orientation.Naveen Patnaik and Nitish Kumar will be valuable and welcome addition to this arrangement.If Mozlems migrate enmasse to their natural habitat of Congress,even the remants of SP in UP can be coopted in to this formation.Nitish Kumar and Naveen for sure know that resurgent Congress poses serious danger to them

Given the hegemonistic tendencies of Congress party and that the party is essentially a family run enterprise,anti-Congressism is sooner or later bound to emerge as a rallying force.Can Advani renounce political office and try to emerge as a la JP in bringing together large anti-Congress forces in the country under a single umbrella. (though I doubt if he can-he also also disappointed hen provided with opportunity)

I would suggest that someone like Nitish can be the PM select for this formation and Jaitley-Modi can provide the organisational support

All this amataurish formulation from my end would be political naivety if Nitish himself is planning to dump BJP and join forces with Cong

Anonymous said...

You have now begun to bore us.

mpanj said...

Swapanda,

I must disagree with you on one point. Yes this catharsis is a positive fallout of BJP's dismal performance. But it must yield some long term structures and processes. BJP has a real opportunity to reshape not only it's own politics but that of other (baba log) parties.

Example: Have a primary (much like the United states) to elect the next head of the party (or its future PM candidate).

Let Sushma Swaraj, NaMo, Jaitley throw their hats/turbans in the ring.

What a slap it would be on the face of the 'Rahul for PM' brigade.

In addition:

a) it would fire-up the Urban voter base.

b) Internal democracy would not be seen as a conflict/weakness, which inturn would take away some of the oxygen that feeds this anti-BJP media frenzy.

c) Future airing of grieviances would not be perceived as an act of indiscipline but part of a process, part of internal democracy.

d) BJP would once again set the agenda and become the 'Lotus' in the cesspool that is Indian Politics.

Siddhu said...

Swapan,

While I am an admirer of both Arun Jaitley and Sudheendra Kulkarni and also think right decisions were made about the parliamentary party posts, there is no denying the fact that both the individuals had important positions in the election campaign. Isn't Sudheendra Kulkarni responsible for a Advani-centric campaign? Hasn't media been too quick to lavish praise on Jaitley on a victory (Karnataka), but he seems to have no role when an election is lost. In the final analysis, problem with the party may have been more fundamental than the campaign strategy, but what performance evaluation is this when you get credit for all the good and no flak for failure?

Anonymous said...

Jaitley has been doing this (backbiting + backroom manipulation thru media) for a very long time so it is now payback time. He is NO angel and is as much responsible for the damage done to BJP as any other top leader! He was ready to claim success (thru his media buddies) for all state wins but the national debacle is a "collective" failure (his words). Now, contrast that with the much-abused Mahajan who took full moral responsibilty for the 2004 loss! Jaitley may be smart, personally honest, outside interests, but he has been a manipulator - Uma (though she did her part to help) is a classic example!
My guess on hints: RS memebr - Arun Shourie. Wants to be memebr - Balbir Punj. Hater - S Mittal.
About Narendra Modi, BJP mainly lost 2004 thanks to his role in mishandling of 2002 riots and his later absive / crude language, fully assisted by Togadia, Singhal and Sudershan. Yes, Modi is honest, forward looking, able, skilled administrator, leader but he is NOT acceptable to substantial numebr of Indians as their leader - not all of them are Congress or Commie supporters - and he will be as divisive a PM as Sonia would have been. So, yes, he has a role at national lever but NOT as PM. He can emulate model of Sonia Gandhi and support an acceptable face as a future BJP PM - Jaitley, Sushsma, Shourie, Pannikar or other smart leader. Will Modi show such humilty and still get his place in history by forsaking the post? That will be THE class act, sir and shut ELM forever! We will know soon. Past is not a very good omen, I am afraid to say.

Sachin said...

Sinha has raised very valid points regardless of his motives.
1. All posts within the party should be filled with internal elections. This includes Leader of Oppostion/Deputy Leader in the LS and RS and Party president. This will give legitimacy to the people occupying these posts.
2. Your confessed proximity to Jaitley is effecting your opinion. If there is an election Jaitley will be undoubtedly elected as LOP in the RS. He should in fact ask for an open election.

Anonymous said...

Is the disagreeable journalist an editor of a English magazine with a bald pate?

Balaji said...

It'll be a shame if Arun Jaitley is in the race for Party president. Then what was the point of him becoming RS leader? Hope they don't undermine important offices like this.

But the smugness displayed by Jaitley and his alter-ego Swapan Dasgupta, comes from the fact that all the current 'catharisis' will have no bearing on how the party will look in 2010. Mohan Bhagwat is dictating terms now.

Jaitley and Sushma's carriers are secure. (Swapan Dasgupta's influence on party affairs is gonna increase. So folks make use of this forum to reach upper echelons!) Jaswant, Sinha, Joshi seem like goners. Rajnath may well be ruining his carrier right now. Funny considering past 3 years shud have reason enough to finish his carrier.

Advani will ensure that Modi and Venkaiah's interests are taken care of. Modi doesn't want any position at the center, right now. Don't know where Venkaiah will end up. Keep an eye on him. He may even stage a comeback as Party president.

Venkaiah as party president is not a back idea although I still think Bal Apte is the best man for the job.

BJP_supporter said...

Swapan, where is any consistency in these positions -
1. Farewell to Hindutva, Shelve Hindutva
2. ideology is not relevant
3. junking the ugly Hindu image
4. The RSS is increasingly being regarded as an impediment to change in the BJP. It is replacing its old moral leadership with organisational control.
5. Yet, the functional autonomy of the BJP cannot diminish the fact that its institutional links with a nationalist organisation committed to Hindu unity and nation building are a source of strength. The RSS’ role of providing a moral and ethical compass for the BJP remains as valid today as it was in 1980 (In Tehelka)
6. What some people are getting increasingly nervous about is the news that the appointment of Sushma Swaraj (as deputy leader in LS) and Jaitley was done by Advani in consultation with the RSS. (if they 'appoint' the people that we like, then organizational control is okay?)

For all of this to make any sense, even RSS will have to dump Hindutva (whatever that word means) and any ideology. Otherwise, if we want to dump Hindutva and blame our election losses on Hindutva, we can not then expect RSS leaders (those who are blissfully unaware with transmission losses) to save our government in Karnataka, and RSS workers to work for free during our electioneering.

Swabhimaan said...

Why no elections in the BJP? Let the cadre elect its leaders.

Sudhir said...

Swapan,

www.ndtv.com/news/videos/video_player.php?id=1126899

You talk about Modi, but the Sickular press will never allow Modi to be the PM. Look at this news piece in NDTV. Seems like only villages of northern Gujarat have water shortage in India and all other places in India have 24 hr water supply. This is bound to grow shriller if Modi comes to the centrestage. The ELM will go to some remote gully in some remote village and start shouting see there is no road so not development, surely some Camera friendly Rama Sena will pop up with its antiques or tehelka will come out with an expose. The youth with knowing the truth will happily abuse BJP reading the ELM news.

I will just say PEOPLE GET WHAT THEY DESERVE.

doubtinggaurav said...

Totally off the topic but I can't stand Sudheendra Kulkarni. Not in the sense of attitude or behaviour but he provides no insight, and there is not a reason to suspect that he possesses any capacity for critical thinking, he is full of superficial rhetoric and platitudes, and his writing is guided more by what is considered cool by the cocktail circuit. He is even more unbearable than Tarun Vijay.

Anonymous said...

BJP should also follow the recent Congress strategy of separating executive (Manmohan) from political (Sonia). People have liked Manmohan as an Intelligent, knowledgeable and dignified executive head who was the "mukhota" and voted for Congress. Sonia has managed the rotten congressi chamchas, the political organization and largesse distribution activity.

For BJP, while the internally elected political leader would be guided by RSS and other political hands, the executive (a good, selfless administrater like Modi)would focus on providing good governance and results.

sundar said...

The defeat that affected all the fraternity had affected you as well and I feel the last two blogs indicate your recuperation from the after-effects of defeat. I could see the return of Swapan da to his usual self in this blog. This blog would reflect the views of a vast majority of BJP supporters.

Bha said...

A Civil war normally has two sides trying to fight each other and establish control. The on goings in the BJP are much worse. There are multiple people trying to outdo each other.
Advani supports Sushma and Jaitley but Sushma does not support Jaitley! Murli Manohar Joshi does not like Advani but he also does not like Rajnath Singh. And in the midst you throw in Yashwant and Jaswant and you have a bollywood pot boiler of intrigue and scheming. Nobody is clear as to who the RSS is going to support and yes how can we forget Namo. The latest one reads is that he is trying to mend fences with MM Joshi!!

Maybe this might finally lead to something better but when and at what cost?? Right now all it seems to be doing is making the BJP and its leaders look extremely silly and juvenile and at the same time undermining the authority of most of its leaders. Has anybody got any idea who has even the slightest bit of control in the BJP presently?

Anonymous said...

Till the UP election 2007 i had a different opinioon about Arun J. Now he looks like the dirtiest politicians in the BJP,who plays a proxy game. Now he is playing through You.

Shankar Iyer said...

Swapanda

It would be interesting to know what makes you think a 'spontaneous debate' or immediate stock-taking is so sacred and a must have? A journalist's first instinct is to conclude hastily , pass self-serving judgements and confirm and preserve a pre-meditated bias. But that need not be the pattern to be followed in every office. On the contrary, in this particular case, since BJP is an 'emotional commitment' for many , the unexpectedly massive defeat could produce only emotional outpurings and not a rational analysis. Analysis has to wait till emotion subsides down and rationality takes over. Also, open debates knowing the bias the ELM carries towards BJP might lead many lesser men in the party to succumb to media's line or protect their own misdoings. This is quite common-sensical and I see nothing blatantly wrong or 'silly' or anything near to being 'stalinistic' as you seem to put it.

As some one else mentioned here, this is all politics as usual. More of ideas , Swapanda, please.

The Maverick said...

What I find amusing in all this is the English Media (particularly Electronic)finding glee in all this.

doubtinggaurav said...

To continue from where I left, while the idea of catharsis may sound seductive, politically, I believe, it is counter productive. A better strategy will be to focus on the issues.

One such ready-made issue is the attempt by center to insulate bureaucracy from political responsibility. BJP leadership is supporting it for rewarding its favorite babus. It should oppose it.

Now this issue may not fetch anything electorally. Indian voters simply do not care about federalism. However this issue helps in positioning, BJP can claim it stands for Strong center and strong states as opposed to Congress which stands for Strong center and weak states and regional parties which stand for weak center and strong states. This kind of positioning helps in reinventing BJP from a saffron flavored Congress that it is perceived today and what's much more important help in attracting allies.

mpanj said...

@Prasanna:

This notion that Modi is unacceptable to a 'vast' array of voting segments is flawed. It is a myth propogated by NDTV and their ilk.

If you analyze voting patterns - it is only in Delhi that the urban middle class went decisively with the Congress. BJP doesnt have much presence in Kolkatta, Chennai.

If you deduct MNS, Mumbai and M'rastra would have given Congress less than 10 seats.

SS-BJP would have had close to 34 seats.

In other words if you combine the voting percentage of SS, BJP and MNS at individual seat levels, the Modi magic worked!!

If this logic is flawed, if we cannot extrapolate this conclusion from these results, we cannot then extrapolate the reverse either - that Modi is unacceptable.

I dont know how much of regional media you consume, but atleast in M'rastra, Modi has acquired an iconic status (and this was only his first foray).

Lastly, Rahul baba lost election after election, and did we hear anyone saying he was 'unacceptable'. He was shielded by the inane arguments - 'party machinery is defective', 'he's still an apprentice', etc.

Now Congress wins one election and you and others are drinking the NDTV kool aid.

NaMo is the answer. The only answer.

And NO he did not cost BJP the 2004 election - much as Varun Gandhi did not cost BJP this one.

Vaibhav said...

I hope 2014 becomes a showdown between Modi and Rahul Gandhi. This is assuming that he comes out clean wrt Godhra investigations. Now Modi can take media head on unlike Advani who was kind to the media. This will break media's strangehold and will break their neutrality pedestal. Of course when Modi will begin to speak of his administrative reforms there will be none to take him on. Lets see how it goes

Swabhimaan said...

About Delhi & Namo - I know there are people who weren't sure about voting for Advani as PM, but Namo did bring a smile to their faces :) Why don't we find out how wide this kind of base is? Get volunteers talking to those who voted for the opposition and collect this information ove a period of time. Why wait for time to throw surprises at us in the end?

doubtinggaurav said...

mpanj @ June 17, 2009 5:45 PM

Prasannaji can speak for himself but briefly the case against Modi is
a. He and by extension BJP will attract the full wrath of secular liberal establishment and its propaganda arm ELM. Now he has weathered the media storm as CM but frankly the controversy over him will push any other issue (on which BJP can gain) in the background

b. Muslim vote will consolidate against BJP.

c. From a. and b. any prospective ally will hesitate in forming coalition with BJP

d. Reports of Modi's appeal are exaggerated as the latest polls show.

Anonymous said...

dear sd
besides his limitations namo has longest trackrecord of honesty and governance among the names appearing.hence bjp under namo can only be a practical fitting reply against corrupt congress.no alliance before election,alliance only after election.what worse can happen?far before election give freedom and resposibility to namo to plan and implement his strtegy.india deserve honest and foccused governance.due to limitations,better not disscused,mms and congress cannot explore potential of india and indians.

Anonymous said...

"Now he looks like the dirtiest politicians in the BJP,who plays a proxy game. Now he is playing through You"

Spot on. These Delhi base leaders and their chamchas like Dasgupta r the reasons BJP in a mess today. They think by becoming "moderate" they will start winning and ELM will stop bashing them. Funny, baseless leaders................ no point in telling them the ground reality. Because they will do what they think is right. These netas who can't win municipal election believes trend starts from the cities (metros). Since they r thrashed in Delhi election they think something is wrong with them. Let me tell them this will be their biggest folly, Bharat isn't Delhi yet and unlikely to be in the future, if they continue with their "rubbish" moderate agenda then they themselves will hammer the last nail in the BJP's coffin. This is a very crucial time for the party, party is on dead bed, any misadventure will be catastrophic. Pls understand the importance of the situation. It seems Jaitley and his coterie will write the obituary of the party.

Pranav said...

For doubtinggaurav and others:

As regards minorities polarising against NaMo - note that in Gujarat NaMo does get some of the minority vote. BJP's problem is not that the minorities polarize against it, but that the majority does not polarize FOR it.

And the reason for that is that the top BJP leadership has not shown enough concern regarding the real issues.

Modi's speeches during this campaign were good and hard-hitting. Look at Modi's speeches on You-tube to understand what the real issues are. Yes, the media tried to make him look bad by focussing on some trivialities in his speeches, while ignoring the important issues he raised. But that is to be expected, and it brings us back again to the BJP's abdication of the media space to pro-Congress owners.

doubtinggaurav said...

As long as I have the floor here is my (rather long winded) elaboration on the comment I made earlier in the thread.

doubtinggaurav said...

To various anon who are insulting Swapan Da.
Shabash, you have found the reason for BJP's defeat. Now I guess what you all have got to do is to cast out Swapan Da from BJP* and lo and behold we will rule on Delhi again InshaAllah.

Of course it might be little tricky considering Swapan Da is not formally a member of BJP but I am sure that you are resourceful and delusional enough to do that.

Rohit said...

Anonymous at 7.47,

And what is the way forward for BJP? Varun Gandhi and Adityanath as youth icons?

Balaji said...

Swapanda,

instead of gossiping, why don't you put on the conservative hat and discuss GST for instance?

BJP_supporter said...

gaurav, your points a,b,and c are true with or without Modi. These were proved in 2009 elections. To some extent Varun was blamed as the reason - but there will always be a reason. As for point d, Modi was only a campaigner in this elections - not a candidate.

On point C - atleast for jayalalitha hindutva or Modi were not issues for dumping BJP - she dumped BJP on the day they lost rajasthan and delhi assembly elections. Who would like a loser (and a very sore loser at that) anyway?

Overall, Modi or any other leader of the BJP need not win 100% of the vote. They need to do only better than the congress, which is about 25% of the vote in 2009. Let us keep that perspective.

zoomindianmedia said...

Prasanna, doubtinggaurav

Modi is tranformational kind of leader - you see once in a century. He is capable of changing the reference frame itself thru which politics is conducted in India. He is a modern Shivaji with who you can not compare anyone else in India's polity. No politician in India has Modi's gravitas. As mpunj wrote, he is a cult hero across all sections of Hindu voters. (He is disliked and will be disliked by those who wish Bharatmata and Her native people ill.)

NaMo's power can be seen from the fact that in Gujarat, Congress is a Hindutva party. Its head is an ex RSS man. It does not nominate any muslim candidate even in areas with significant muslim population. That is NaMo's Power.

Modi is distinguished. He has seen it all - organisation issues, faction fights and has been a top notch administrator. He understands BJP inside out, outside in. He has unmatched capacity to connect to wide range of people.

He is someone capable of breaking the back of rogue media (commie channel ndtv deceit 24/7, congi channel ibn lies live). Corrupt media can be screwed and should be screwed. Modi will not suck up to media rogues like the neandral idiot Sudheendra Kulkarni. (Because of mediocre perception management in BJP, many in the party built personal images at the cost of brand BJP)

Gaurav has mentioned that minority veto will impact Modi. If BJP on its own wins 250 odd seats, parties that love islamist vote bank can take a spoon of water and drown themselves. Modi is capable of fashioning a transformation where associating with islamist vote bank politics can potentially become a passe.

If given control of BJP, there is no reason to suspect he can not effect a national transformation.

Lot of hard work is required to resuscitate the BJP. Mahatma Modiji is BJP/RSS/Nationalist Indians' best bet to make this happen. Mohan Bhagwat, LK Advani are fortunate that they have this powerful weapon in their arsenal.

Only thing BJP has to be careful is NaMo's security. NaMo is BJP's greatest asset. Congi/islamists/evangelists can go to any lengths to prevent native Indians like Modi from acquiring levers of national power. S P Mukherjee(during nehru's misrule) and DD Upadyaya (during indira khan gandhi's misrule) were both assassinated under deeply mysterious circumstances.

I am not suggesting Modi to be a PM candidate at this point. That is an issue which can be visited later on. What is important is that Modi be anointed as the Numero Uno in BJP soon. He should become the person who will decide and and enforce BJP' subsequent course of action. He should become the person who will decide India's PM in 2014 as he relentlessly pursues protecting the interests of native Indians, Indian national interests and BJP interests.

Prasanna said...

Swapanda

Why cant BJP look for solving its leadership woes by looking for talent from outside its ranks especially by coopting inspirational nationalist individuals from the intelligenstia?Cant it invite someone like Abdul Kalam /E.Sreedharan/JP Narayanan or for that mater even NRN and offer them the mantle of leadership?For eg why cant they accept several practical suggestion by JP on electoral reforms and invite him to implement it in BJP on a nationalwide scale?

When i tried to convincing people to vote for BJP ,i uniformly found that they had nothing but disdain for Congress and Gandhi dynasty but appeared inclined to vote for Congress because of the perception that Manmohan is 'apolitical' and 'genuine' individual.You wouldnt believe the number of deeply prejudiced Togadia types (whose language would put Varun Gandhee to shame rooting) for Con party becos of Manmohan.

Advani himself had recognised this problem and on many occasion spoken about the image deficit suffered by "Ugly IndiaN politician"..Unfortunately he being a professional politician (despite his integrity quotient and impeccable nationalist credentials) is also widely considered a quintessential politician

If Manmohan Singh despite his horrible track record as PM is still regarded well by general public its because of a carefully cultivated apolitical image

Even someone like the Manohar Parrikar might not be a bad idea compared to the petty provincial opeartors like Rajnath Singh.

DOubting Gaurav passionately argued for Arun Shourie rather than Advani to be projected as the face of BJP.i thought it was a ridiculous idea but with hindsight wisdom i have to concur with him That fly by night IIT party made quite a splash in couple of elections(i remember now that defunct Lok Paritran guys notching 100000 votes in a couple of seats in Chennai)

Rapid Urbanisation means that atleast 120 seats will become completely Urban in the next 10 yrs and this model can be a way to success atleast in traditional urban strongholds.If you ignore the four major metros(Mumbai can be recovered),60%of tier two cities still are largely with the BJP.

Initiative like Friends of BJP too can be strengthened to a great extent if such inspirational individuals outside the political system can be co-opted

I remember that in run up to the election in 90's we had a steady stream of influential and well known figures joining BJP.This has now come to a grinding halt-i can only remember joining BJP in 2009 election time was Kiron Kher and Jaspal Rana(Rajnath's relative i suppose).Did any IT entreprenur, scientist,well admired bizmen,social worker join BJP in the last 5 years.Zero

I think Modi /Jaitley can utmost make BJP appear sensible and focussed unit from its bumbling and blundering ways of today.Nothing more .i bet they can they cannot make any significant improvement to its electoral fortunes

.
Only a radically different approach can solve the problem of leadership

Anonymous said...

"the unexpectedly massive defeat could produce only emotional outpurings and not a rational analysis"

Unexpected defeat ???? for whom ? Boss, do one thing, make real or fake (by fake I mean u can make profile by any name u like)Orkut profile and visit Orkut community of RSS, NaMO and BJP. These communities have more than 20k members each, in one of the community -- perhaps BJP or RSS -- there were few people who were dead sure abt this defeat. There were not doing tukka bazi as an old member of these communities I've seen them backing their arguments "rationally". As far as I remember with the exception of 2004 LS defeat these guys have predicted every assembly, municipal correctly and now 2009 LS election also. The blind BJP supporters there were cursing them during the election as these guys were swimming against the popular tide and predicting big BJP defeat. But these guy said they wrongly predicted 2004 election b'coz they were swayed by BJP media campaign, BJP supporters confidence (rather over confidence) but this time they will stick by their convictions and ground reality. On 16th May when result came only these guys were roaming in these community. All the blind BJP supporters there were crying like u, as their heart were broken. Do u want to know what reasons these folks were giving for BJP defeat ? Why should I tell u ? Why don't u go and see with ur own eyes ? The threads (evidence) r still there (if not then u can search it in the community), u can see the date also. There arguments were worth considering. They were totally opposite to Swapan da and Jaitley. Since these guys --they r not astrologers; acc to their pro. most of them r atheist and agnostic but hardcore pragmatic right-winger-- predicted sound BJP defeat accurately I think their arguments and logic were more legitimate and carries more weight than anybody else. After their arguments u guys will stop reading Swapan's childish arguments. We have seen him doing volte-face post 16th May, we will see him doing this again when his "moderate", "modern" BJP theory meet the worse fate than this in 2014 LS election. It'd be interesting to listen Swapan's argument then (2014). I couldn't wait for that but I'm waiting, I'm really waiting.

mpanj said...

For all those questioning NaMo, please do your research on NaMo. Please don’t swallow the Media administered 'hate Modi' pills.

You could begin by reviewing his speeches on youtube.

Not only has NaMo devised the broad contours of how the right-of-center paradigm should be shaped he has actually implemented and practiced it in Gujarat.

Exhibit A: Truncation of VHP/BD's wayward agenda.

This coming war has to be fought on so many levels that we need another Shivaji. Nothing else will suffice.

Steely resolve, tactical and strategic genius, an innate sense of what is inherently (not politically) right and wrong - what is just, selflessness, personal integrity and above all Courage.

No other leader embodies these qualities.

That BJP is blessed with just such a leader is the silver lining to the dark cloud hovering over our nation.

It is the duty of us – the foot soldiers – to protect and promote NaMo to the best of our abilities.

Let us not fall into another trap laid by the liberal traitors.

Even the Barkhas and Surdesais understand this -

NaMo is the last man standing.

Anonymous said...

Sushma Swaraj is much better suited to step into the shoes of Mr. Vajpayee than Modi.

Siva said...

"Modi will soon become accepted as the most enlightened and modern face of the BJP"

Swapanda, which world are you living in?

I for one will be very very glad if your statement does come out to be true. But I am skeptical. As long as you have an ELM dominated by Barkha, Prannoy, Sagarika, Arnab etc, thats just not going to happen. And by all accounts, the Congress is increasing its clout in vernacular press too, so the situation is only headed downhill.

The ELM has already started trashing Modi (case in point, Vikram Chandra equating Modi and Vaun Gandhi...all 'journalists' except u do that). And unless the stain of Godhra is removed - some court or som half respectable committee report finding him not guilty - he will be villified by the secularists in the country, who unforunately get more column space and air time that you.

Case in point - the Church in Kaniyakumari coming out openly in support of 1 particular Christian candidate 'to keep the communal foces out' - the only seat in TN where the BJP had a good chance. Now the media wont recognize the inherent hypocrisy in that - a church entering politics to preserve secularism. You will have all churches and mosques and mullahs issueing directives / fatwas for people to vote against Modi. Irrespective of how good at governance he is.

And again, it is in the interest of the Congress that the truth about Godhra never comes out, one way or another. If Modi is proved innocent, he wil become PM the next day. If he is proved guilty and vanishes from the political scene, the Congress and ELM will lose their favourite whipping boy.

So I would be very happy if your statement comes true, but I dont see that happening in my lifetime, and Im in my early 20's.

Ofcourse, you have worded your sentence carefully. "Seen as the most..." - within the party or outside? Outside is what matters.

I dont know about enlightened and modern, but I still think he will be the best bet to lead the party to victory in 2014. An interesting statistic I saw somewhere - 12% of Congress voters of 2004 said in 2009 that they would have voted for BJP if Modi was PM candidate. Thats a very significant chunk. Stories about of people - the independants who dont particularly care for Hindutva and so didnt vote for Advani, but care for development, and so will support Modi. This was best articulated by the lieks of Ambani, Mittal etc. People voted for MMS in droves as he too stands for cleanliness in politics and development - IMHO his image as a non-politician won the election for the COngress this time.

In 2014, the BJP will face a conbative media (who would be willing to defend the Congress PM candidate Rahul Gandhi with their lives), a resurgent Congress - lets face it, the Congress workers are at their liveliest when a Gandhi is at the helm. If we are to stand a chance of winning, we need Modi. But dont expect the media to love him then.

Siva said...

@Pranav,
regarding minorities going for or against modi :
Fact is that BJP muslim vote across the country was 6%, and was 13% in Gujarat. So it is true, Gujarat Muslims like Modi far more than muslims from other places. But this is one fact we never hear being debated on the TV talk shows.

This is because the muslims on the ground in gujarat know that Modi stands for development, he has delivered development for all the people of Gujarat, muslims included. But for those of us outside, we have to get our info about Gujarat from the media. And there we hear about how Modi has a couple of Muslims for breakfast, lunch and dinner etc. One enlightened writer said that in Gujarat, people are routinely fed anti Muslim hatred and rhetoric from Modi. Ive seen a lot of his campaign speeches, never have I heard him say a thing against Muslims.

Essentially the people of the ground know better than the people outside. Take Mangalore. Lunatic Muthalik and his mob tried to tarnish the name of the BJP. (An aside - even if we assume that he was associated with the BJP, how can everyone assume it was communal. Beating up girls at a bar - did they single out Muslim girls or something?.....but it immediately became a Hindus vs Minorities thing) But again, people on the ground in Mangalore know better, and voted for the BJP in large numbers.

Its a question of where people get their info from. And as long as minorities get their info from Congress controlled media, minorities will still vote en-bloc against Modi.

On the other hand, I think that we cannot possibly do worse in terms of minority votes than the 2009 elections. We have about bottomd out. Once Modi is projected as PM candidate, we will lose a little in terms of fear factor, but gain amongst those minorities who are informed enough to know Modi's developmental record in Gujarat.So on the whole, if we can get 10% of muslim vote in 2014, I think we should be satisfied (we hit 13% in 2004).

So we cannot really predict a huge swing for or against the BJP among minorities if Modi becomes PM candidate.

Where it will really hurt is in terms of allies. No one will touch us with a barge pole. But I am in favour of thinking about alliances post poll. Ever since the BJP decided to go to polls hoping to get 272 as NDA, it is seen as weak. I can see no reason why we cant aim for 272 on our own.

Advait said...

Swapanda, off topic,
How is it that any article you write for The Pioneer is distinctly overly generous to the BJP, any article for TOI/Indian Express is nutral and an article for Tehelka is distinctly overly critical of the BJP? DO you change your writing style depending on the political biases of those who sign your paycheck? Thats not a sign of a good journalist is it?

Thruth be told ofcourse, you are way way better thanthe likes of Sagarika and other liberal media figures. Next time you are on their shows and they accuse you of being a BJP man, tell them that the difference between u and them is that you are atleast truthful enough to admit your bias, so that your readers can take what you say with a pinch of salt, while they are just not truthful enough to admit theirbias. They are just as biased towards the Congress as u are to the BJP anyway.

Be careful swapanda, the mdia has identified u as one of the chief spokespersones of the aam BJP supporter, a guy who actually makes some sense, and are so trying to discredit you by calling u a BJP ideologue instead of a political commentator. This is to ensure u lose our clout as an opinion maker.

Anonymous said...

Here is a question that somebody should ask Advani's detractors within the party. If Advani and his family were so bad for the party, why were you campaigning to make him the PM. Why did you want to wreck the country as well?

offstumped said...

Prasanna - The flaw with your prescription is it is tantamount to an artificial outsourcing of the leadership problem sans any fundamental reinvention.

It will never carry any credibility or conviction with the rank and file.

We need to stop worrying about electoral fortunes and start worrying about shoring up credibility and conviction in a Vision for the future that is rooted in a coherent ideology and backed by real world proof of points.

Once such a reinvention happens natural leaders will evolve to impact electoral fortunes.

There are no shortcuts to this process by importing a celebrity as a Leader from the outside and expecting magic to happen.

Anonymous said...

ankan says

swapan did the right thing by criticizing varun. You cannot abuse, literally abuse, a set of people and justify that. Most people find that kind of speech off putting and viral.

my reply

simple minded people like u dont get it.it is the double standards of dynasty pet ndtv,ec, elmedia that are at issue here.and swapan playing into their hands

varun denied what he said but congress leaders said the same thing (and simple minds forget that or are ignorant ) like maut ke suadagar,andhra pradesh leader said he will cut out hindus hands,owaisi a upa ally bashed up tasleema,congress'imran kidwai said something in punjab at same time.

it is the double standards of ndtv againt varun and bjp that is at issue here and swwapan shudl know better that varun,modi,bjp hindus are an agenda of ndtv .

are their different rules for hindus and muslimss,bjp and congress,varun and sonia who made the mautkesuadagar statement and even ec showed its doublestandards then in gujarat and later tried to save face

did u ankan or swapan say anything.do u guys eevn remeber anything or do u guys think we can have differnt rules for different sides based on your hidden motives and loyalty.

everyone with some brains knows ndtv elmedia doublestandards.

and even a kid knows rules shudl be the same.

if u cant rebut my post,dont post another till u meet the stnadrad of knowleddge,memmory and analysis.u r wasting my time .

so where was the concern for abuse when sonia and congress says it.rahul said we abused cbi and media hid it.abusing cbi is worse than what varun said.

cbi is an institution and where were u and swapan then.anyone with doublstandars shuld get lost.period.it is the same as cheating in a game with a corrupt referee which is what ndtv and ec are.

Pranav said...

Here are some "orphan" issues that are waiting for somebody to take them up. Modi had raised many of them in his campaign but by and large BJP has dropped the ball on these.

1. the 50,000 crores missing from the Govt treasury, which have reportedly been handed over to mysterious NGOs by Sonia-Manmohan govt.

2. Stud farm owner Hassan Ali Khan's transfers of billions of dollars and the desperate attempts by Congress to bury the story

3. Plight of Kashmiri Pandits. Also, plight of Kashmiri Muslims who have also been victimized by terrorists.

4. Bangladeshi infiltrators, and how seculars are facilitating them and using them as vote banks.

5. Indications that a senior Congress leader of a particular community was involved in the murder of Swami Laxmanananda, and the refusal of the State government to do justice.

6. Indications of foreign powers using missionaries to liaise with and support terrorists in South Asia (not only in India but also in connection with the Nepali Maoists and the LTTE)

7. The very credible allegations of Sonia's history of being on the payroll of foreign intelligence agencies.

8. Atrocities perpetrated by the Maoists, and how the top leadership of the Maoists were deliberately let off at the behest of the secular forces, when they were surrounded by Andhra police.

9. How people from the majority community are treated as second-class citizens as regards management of schools and temples. How temple funds are looted by secular state governments.

8. Indications of a nexus between a senior Central Government minister from Maharashtra and a well known mafia don hiding in Pakistan.

9. Subversion of constitutional institutions by secular forces. How known thugs have been appointed to the Election Commission and the Presidency.

10. The inherent vulnerability of electronic voting mechanisms to rigging.

As I said, the BJP has by and large dropped the ball on these issues. But it's not enough for these issues to be raised in "Chintan Baithak". We need to have electronic media hammering on these issues 24x7, until life becomes an unending nightmare for the "secular" forces.

Anonymous said...

zoom,ur comment makes more sense than prasannas.

calling mms honrest is elmedia
bribed-promo just like they do for rahul and bjp bashing.

only ignorants will believ this.

in fact a reader pointed out mms integrity myth,
a
egs abuse of cbi for parliament support from mayawati-mulayam,quatrochi-defreezing argentina drama, missing 50000 crore cag reprt,bribe for parliament vote ,rti not allowed for minsiters and kin.

elmedia hides facts and shortmemoried ignorants or idiots believe mms is honest bs promoted by congress bribed pet dogs in media.


anyway mms won because congress-media teamsters mobilized minority vote as usual .they did not win for integrity or performance because media hid performance issue.

as long as minority votes and turnsout with a fatwa to vote against bjp,the voting math is against bjp.in india congress can win with 28 % and 8 out of 10 voters were muslims

this does not reflect on modi who is the most popular bjp leader and has inspiration quality.only problem is that the bjp modi vote shuld be mobilized to counter minority vote against bjp.

it is just that national elections minority has growing grip on political life and congress-media know they do not need to perform but only mobilize vote of muslims by raking up chaddi,godhra varun,muthalik,or sops like cbse= madrasas and get mullahs to isssue fatwas like they have done for 60 yrs.

prasanna types and others are just like doctors making speculative diagnoses.

Anonymous said...

panj well said.people who are taken in by elmedia propaganda are not worthy to comment.

elmedia has a wordlwide and congress sponsorship against modi .

only ignorants and gullibles will believ elmedia after 20 yr record against bjp.its amazing how stupidly gullible people can be.

these elmedi are afrauds and being paid by funds from congress swissbank and teesta's arabian fees and worldwide forces like evangelicals and jihadis.

anyone who believes elmedia shuld be disqualified from posting here.

they are campaigners for congress-islamists and hindu haters themselves,their doublstandards against modi,hindusbjp shuld be obvious to anyone fatr just a few shows.

these elmedia traitors told musharaf "they will take care of bjp.

they were licking his feeet at agra when he claled terrorists freedom fighters.

ignorants either forget facts about elmedia or dont know them
and worse are gullible enough to be fooled by them,which is what elm counts on.

disgusting insult to intelligence is wht elmedia propagnada is.

only in india elmedia-mafia is a watchdog and basher of opposition and in pay of government with adversts,padmasrees,bribes,whisky parties as rewards to corrupt media.

doubtinggaurav said...

As far as my proposing Arun Shourie was concerned, I didn't really think he could win elections for BJP that however was moot because I didn't think Advani or anyone could win elections. My purpose was to set BJP on a course which it lacked it was kind of Goldwater maneuver.

Reg. Narendra Modi,

Well people by all means nominate Modi, just be prepared for the perfect shit storm.
I agree that he is a capable administrator and a charismatic campaigner. However the era of All India leaders is over , at least for the time being. If BJP has to win it should focus on issues not personalities.

Balaji said...

Swapanda,

If you are familiar with the deal Advani struck with Mohan Bhagwat, is Murli Manohar Joshi the next president of the BJP?

1. Modi visited Joshi when he was in Delhi.
2. Joshi curiously talks presidential these days. "I have never felt the need for a gag order".
3. Now comes news that RSS will decide the next BJP President (what democracy, you suckers!) in Varanasi, Joshi's constituency!

Balaji said...

Anonymous,

/* Here is a question that somebody should ask Advani's detractors within the party. If Advani and his family were so bad for the party, why were you campaigning to make him the PM. Why did you want to wreck the country as well? */

becos Advani sucked so much as home minister that his ability to even damage the country is questionable.

anyway people campaign on ideals. BJP despite its lackluster leadership appeals to its supporters.

A person who is committed enough to campaign for a political party is not gonna be cynical. Its not the crowd that stays away from voting becos its sunny outside. For most political workers, the party defines themselves. No one is gonna starve himself, no matter how low a opinion he has of himself.

Pradyot said...

I am completely baffled by the lack of willingess to debate and take corrective steps on the behalf of the BJP. Even India's defeat in the Twenty2o world cup has proabably attracted more discussion. An unwillingness to debate means the BJP is happy with its place in Indian polity. Advani's Continuing as Opposition leader also makes no sense. Pity the much vaunted second rung of BJP leadership hasn't really amounted to all that much. There are urgent matters of the state that a responsible Opposition party must devote itself to. But these jokers are busy fighting amongst themselves.

Ankan said...

Ananoymous sir, I fully know the double standards of the media and have written some comments about it too. Being an ordinary citizen, I cannot much about it.

I want to say two things. Firstly, the fact that others in Congress said nasty things does not make Varun Gandhi's statement any better. If the party and the people associated with it stop defending the indefensible, it will be a good start. I hope people who matter in the BJP do not keep their head buried in sand.

Secondly, let us take up the media bias. It is there, it is pervasive and it is consistent. Shouting at the top of your voice with impotent rage is not going to do anything to counter this. The party's success is at stake and the higher ups have to take initiative on this front. If the BJP successfully silences its lunatic fringe, the PR exercise CAN be done (although it will require a lot of discipline a and lot of persistence).

Right Angle said...

Swapan,

pls read the swamy's article on evn fraud in "The Hindu"

http://www.hindu.com/2009/06/17/stories/2009061755160900.htm

aru said...

I too agree with balaji's guess. I think Rajnath will take over UP mantle. Modi after swarna Gujarat may join under MMJoshi in the organisation and may be incharge of east coast and be elevated as president once MMJ's term expires. Advani will leave when Modi joins the organisation and pave the way for Sushma and become Moral detached leader ( courtesy: offstumped).
If there is analysis today it will be a mere blame game. All the civil war is about succession and once the dust settles on Suceesion issue then sanity returns and discussion on ideas will start. Today any wiew will be viewed through the prism of individual's feature position. We don't see congress conducting postmortem.

zoomindianmedia said...

doubtinggaurav

Presence of Doubters and contrarians is indeed essential for critical thinking. Some food for thought.

1. The vitriol from anti Hindu establishment will pour and should pour. This is a battle that has to be fought and should be fought frontally rather than running away from the field as some suggest and as Advani & team did in 2009.

2. Modi is genuinely non sectarian. He is disliked because he speaks the truth that needs to be spoken to xians/islamists.

3. The whole of issue of Modi's apology on Godhra is centered around anti Hindu establishment rubbing into ground, nose of those who speak for native Indians (those who dont follow predatory foreign totalitarian faiths) and that the message gets in. (Advani made this compromise w.o getting in return. Modi obviously knows better)

Muslims/xian leaders have never ever publically apologised for their iconoclasm in India. Rajeev "Khan" Gandhi was never asked to apologise for his "on record" incitement and justification of 1984 riots.

Anonymous said...

Swapan da, I am one with you on this issue that a political churning is necessary in the BJP. Adherence to status quo after the defeat in 2004 is the biggest reason behind the poor showing of the Party in 2009. After 2004, the BJP failed to internalise the defeat and was always of the view that Congress won by-mistake and a mid term poll will bring the party to power. But, the defeat of 2009 seems to have brought this realignment with in the party as the it seems to have accepted the defeat. Had BJP accepted the defeat in 2004, it would have taken steps to improve the position of the Party in Kerala, WB, TN and AP which it never did.

Anonymous said...

To all idiots who r opposing Modi; pls understand one thing clearly he's last hope of the party and will win even whole media opposes him. We just need to support him and if he wins Gujarat assembly election (Modi(lion) vs Rahul(goat)) then it'd change the whole scenario dramatically. I know many ground level workers of the BJP so I'm saying this with there inputs and my experience. Loose cannon Sushma has an "image" (yes image which is worse than Modi!) problem. She said "Ram temple is a encashed check!", "she will shave off her head if Sonia becomes PM"...and so on. She is not liked by BJP workers and considered as a burden by many folks though she is a good orator. Our core supporters also doesn't like her. In the end I just wanna say "controversial" Modi is an asset pls don't criticize him. Vince McMahon used to say, "controversy creates cash". In our case Modi will create crops of votes. Just wait and watch, but the only headache is U.P and southern India...Varun and Yogi could be Modi of U.P if BJP supports them.

doubtinggaurav said...

Here is one more issue replace income tax with consumption tax

doubtinggaurav said...

Hi Yoss,

If I may intervene your plan is somewhat like designing software according to what text books says not what customer wants or when does it want.

zoomindianmedia said...

doubting gaurav.

Your understanding of personalities needs to change.

Personalities are needed to articulate view points. While commitment to ideology is important, public pulling down of personalities because they acquire strengths/success needs to be eschewed as long as the personalities are not undermining the ideology.

BJP should identify and deploy men with requisite skills to handle jobs in hand. Right selections are important for leadership positions. Such as selecting in UP (an inspiring charismatic young leader that can politically bury raul vinci). Right people to regularly engage on door to door campaign, right people to do public speaking etl. al. As an example Navjyot Sidhu taking on Congress I (islami-isai)’s Abhishek Singhvi will be far more effective than say Prakash Javdekar or Chandan Mitra taking on him. No other party has a talent like Sidhu and that was wasted (If Badals had anything to do with Sidhu’s underdeployment that is poor politics as one is pulling down one’s own optimal performance). Even in a hostile media environment, Sidhu can take on and make a mincemeat of Congressis. Kiron Kher is another talent who can keep our flags and morale high in support of our cause.

Sanjay said...

Swapanda,
If some people were nurturing hope for ministership or governorship, it must have been difficult for them to reconcile to a life of lesser mortality, but are BJP supporters and voters to be blamed for that? Why are we being subjected to their histrionics. The writing on the wall clearly says “Change Or Disappear”. Everyone, regardless of whether he is a sympathizer or detractor of the party says that BJP needs drastic not cosmetic change, the appointment of Sushma Swaraj and Arun Jaitley as LOPs was a step ahead, the last thing we need is two steps backward.
The powers that be should put an end to these histrionics we are being subjected to day in and day out. I can suggest three options:
Option I: Appoint a Deputy President immediately and rest the issue.
Option II: Declare that the President would henceforth be elected. Tenure should ideally be for two years, even Army appoints Generals for only two years.
Option III: Declare that Advani will be next President if they still want continuity, he still has the most acceptability.
And lastly Koshyari should either be made Chief Minister or shown the door. Half measures like Rajya Sabha membership will neither benefit Koshyari nor Khanduri.

offstumped said...

@DoubtingGaurav

Your analogy is stinging but for a small problem.

Politics and Governance is not Consumer Marketing

Election Campaigns can be Consumer Marketing if handled right, case in point Barry O messiah the promised one.

Where you and others are missing the point is falling for this Karl Rove, Rahm Emmaneul construct of a permanent election campaign where every calculation and decision is driven with a focus on electoral compulsions.

It wont work it will be seen by people by as sheer opportunism sans credibility and conviction.

Forget the next campaign till atleast 2013.

There will be State level campaigns of course which need their own Consumer Marketing solutions from a medium message messenger standpoint.

But it is more important at the national level to be seen to be rebuilding the movement to earn the people's confidence and less about how to win the next election.

Sudhir said...

Please check this news. I do not know how true this news is. I have a question to all the commentators - What will BJP becomes if it opposes this move of the government - Communal ot politicising the issue or rabble rouser or bad opposition?

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?a=jgsp0qijgcf&title=No_Kargil_Divas_this_year&?vsv=TopHP1

Ten years after the Kargil conflict, the government wants us to forget it.

The government has reportedly issued a circular to the armed forces once again, saying it would not be officially celebrating the 10th anniversary of the Kargil war on July 26 this year.

Sources told Sify.com that the decision was purportedly taken to avoid `rubbing salt into Pakistan`s wounds` at a time when the peace process was once again being re-initiated.

Arjun said...

Dear Swapan,

1. What is the expected time line for the supreme court to give a clear verdict on the Godhra cases?

2. Prima facie, there is an apparent contradiction in your support for Modi Vs. your dislike for hard line politics. Offstumped and others have pointed to news articles that indicate absence of any culpability on Modi's part as far as 2002 is concerned. But there are clearly several articles that do state that he had a role to play. Why don't you and others in the know address this contradiction with verifiable facts? Now you may say that this is a way to fall into the lefties trap but for some one like me, this issue needs clarification. Maybe it is wise to wait for the supreme court to rule on the subject but at least after that facts will be brought to light rather than just claim that the verdict proves the point.

Anonymous said...

Looks like there is a move afoot to destabilise the Gujarat government. Good show by the Congress ;-).

http://www.politicsparty.com/gujarat_topple.php

Anonymous said...

Barkha Dutt seems to have succeeded in getting an apology of sorts from navy chief for criticizing her for the coverage of Kargil war. It’s elementary that during war, any information however inconsequential one may think about your own forces and what they are thinking/doing is of no use to your own forces, they already know that, it is only useful to the enemy forces. These journalists behave as if they know everything about everything, it’s hard to believe they are ignorant even about the basics. But she hounded the navy chief for stating the obvious, and now when he is about to retire he has everything to lose to be on the wrong side of the high and mighty NDTV.
After Gaurav Sabnis it’s Navy Chief, NDTV is above everything now.

Alan Smithee said...

That BJP (and its electoral victory) alone can promise a better future for India appears to be the premise for all this analysis. I think it is better to pursue the Barry Goldwater - Arun Shourie line of thought that Gaurav proposed.

Anonymous said...

Offstumped and others have pointed to news articles that indicate absence of any culpability on Modi's part as far as 2002 is concerned. But there are clearly several articles that do state that he had a role to play. Why don't you and others in the know address this contradiction with verifiable facts? Now you may say that this is a way to fall into the lefties trap but for some one like me, this issue needs clarification. Maybe it is wise to wait for the supreme court to rule on the subject but at least after that facts will be brought to light rather than just claim that the verdict proves the point.

What difference does it make? The lefties have vitiated the situation so much that no one on the right is going to believe that any adverse findings by the SIT or Supreme Court are anything more than a political stunt. Frankly I think the situation may be reaching a point where the party might be better advised to pass a Hindustan resolution. The party has about 70% of the votes that the Congress has, which is more than what the Muslim League had when they passed the Pakistan resolution.

Dhruv said...

The aam admi is still ignorant of the transformation Modi is bringing in Gujarat...

Hope some good film maker makes a commercial movie based on Modi's work in Gujarat .... That will be a better mode to make people aware of his work .....

Every one knows he is better than other politicians when it comes to development ... but what people donot know is that he is light years ahead of the rest.

Many of the educated folks including some on this forum are 'ok' with his development work but are concerned about his image etc (as if development is one minor thing in the whole pie ... clean water, electricity, healthcare, jobs, roads, education , social security, investment , industry , agriculture, poverty alleviation, wealth creation... everything comes under development .. DEVELOPMENT is the REAL thing , the most important issue which matters to aam admi .... please donot club it with words like if and but ... or with other political issues .... it just dilutes the whole essence ....think of your typical day ... every aspect of it, everything to do with your happiness/well-being revolves around development...

To be honest although Modi is a part of BJP , BJP minus Modi will only manage to be a shade better than Congress when it comes to Governance ..... Only Modi knows the secret of making the entire bureacracy work .... the mantra to tranformational development as in Gujarat ....
Also people who advocate that one should go for a collective leadership/party/ideology rather than relying on just one person may be right to some extent ... but then where are the options ?? There is just one leader who is honest and highly effective when it comes to Governance .... if people allow him to succeed, a right kind of environment will develop and more people of Modi's kind will appear on the national stage and will get into development politics rather than mere vote bank politics .. Till then Modi is India's only hope !!

And people whose 'compassionate' hearts are still filled with 2002 memories thanks to the ELM ,Modi is not guilty of killing anyone ....move on ... understand at the most as a CM he could just be held responsible for not taking action quick enough (even that is not true reading the media news items like timing of army deployed etc ). And if it comes to inaction or delayed action , Bharat Ratna Rajiv Gandhi is culprit of much bigger magnitude ... while Gujarat was a riot , Delhi was a massacre of sikhs ..... much worse ... he even stated those infamous pedh girta hai words..

Lets have the same standards while judging people and their actions in public life !!

dubash said...

I am bit perplexed. You open with "a civil war is necessary to clarify matters" A simple and forceful assertion. I am with you on that.

But the assorted machinations that you report are that of a palace coup and not of a civil war. What are the chances of a real civil war?

I am unhappily resigned to the fact that we have failed twice to vanquish the enemy but what is even more despairing is that we don't even the requisite strength to start a good ole fashioned civil war?

All these leaks and gag orders and three-man panels -- so much dithering and dallying, somebody ought to just step forward and throw a molotov cocktail and get the war started.

I think an out and out civil war will force people to come out in the open. Heck we could even package and sell it to the media. Think about the ratings for BJP Big Brother! I can't imagine another mechanism that is better suited to help us decide between candidates with such thin resumes.

Only a war (open-contest) will throw up a leader empowered with credibilty and authority. An apointee, however well-suited for the job will be constantly second-guessed and undermined.

The BJP and the RSS are living in the past if they expect party supporters to wait patiently outside the conclave in Varanasi for smoke signals to announce the new leader. I guess it is rather fitting that the end should occur in Varanasi.

Satya said...

Sudheendra Kulkarni should go! He is good for nothing. Don't know if he is dangerous.

Anonymous said...

arjun,first let us talk of sikh riots,hindu genocide in kashmir and all communal riots before 2002.the emregency was hardline.
and today that dictator's family continues to rule.
hardline is a subjective word.congress will do anything for power abuse cbi,guvs ec and put poor money in swisss banks.

that is worse hardline than anything modi did.ignorant he demolished temples for devlopment.

what gives u any authority to call modi hardline.

omar abdullah's speech about jammu agitation was far more hardline and ndtv awarded him indian of year.

just get lost if you cant rebut this factually without using subjective words like hardline.

nincompoops,ignorants shuld not post here and waste time.

to me sonia is hardline and mms comment on first claim and reervation for muslims is hardline and worse than jaziya by taliban.

rebut or get lost.

Anonymous said...

modi is an asset.well said anon.

only nincompoops,gullibles beisdes the enemies like islamists,evangelicals,jihadis,congress elmedia mafia paid by international anti-hindu forces and congress hate modi.

but they have selfish and corrupt motives,let india be damned.anyone else opposing modi is an ignorant nincompoop like those posting here.shame on hindus for creating such idiots.minorities unite unlike hindus who have to fight nincompoop gasbags too.

that is an understatement though.modi is godsent to india and bjp and hindus and non votebank minorities.

muslims are beter off in gujarat a sthey themselves admit.the crying qutbuddin the 2002 poster boy returned to gujarat from secular paradise bengal and so did pasees tata's nano.

Anonymous said...

well said pranav.siva are u saying that the corrupt congress owned elmafia(not media will decide) that modi is not acceptable.

man they will reward you for this.this is what they and their teesta-arabi bank rollers want.

but the last time i checked india and bjp have their own rignts and they are not the property of elmedia mafia.

maybe you are owned by them.

Anonymous said...

ankan,you prove that u are simple,ignorant and
gullible at best or a secular jihahdi at worst.


ndtv is not a moral science class.it is a devious political mercenary on congress-teesta arabia-pakistan ( exclusive licenses) payroll with an agenda against varun,bjp,modi,bjp hindus.sqwapan played into their hands without even allowing varun to clear himself in court.the tape was made by his enemies.

u will not even know these guys hide all attacks on hindus and their leaders.

theythe elmedia were quiet on godhra train and victims waiting to pounce only after retaliation.

u cannot give me bs like we shuld criticize only bjp,varun and hindus,even if we do not criticize others.u are now talking like a jihadi who puts muslims firsta nd only and hindus lower.maybe u are.but i am ashamed to be a hindu if hinduism creates traitors like u.


u are trojan horse an dshuld be employed by ndtv or other elmedia because that is what they do 24-7.

hindu live sre equally valuable.mahats are killed in orissa and the swami's killers are yet to be found. and both cases are unreported unlike the 24-7 screams during grahma staines and post swami and post godhra train.

are u saying anything about this.no.why not ?are u saying anything about 60,000 dead in teror balsts and the 4 disciples of swami who ere also killed.

did varun do anything worse than congress which cannot defend innocents.

and varun was talking in the context of rape of a hindu girl by four in pilibit.

u have a problem with self defence by hindus.

man with your double stnadrds osama and taliban will need to do nothing to conquer india.you hypocritical lectures will be enough to dope hindusand put tehm to sleep when the jihadis take over thanks to traitors like u.

offstumped said...

Arjun - The media slander campaign against Modi can never settle the truth. A good test on this issue is to examine what the media said of Narendra Modi before Feb 2002 visa-vis Minority insecurities

http://www.hindu.com/2002/01/01/stories/2002010101220800.htm

The day Mr. Modi took over as Chief Minister, we knew there will be no trouble this year during Christmas,'' a senior Home Department official said. The view is shared by Christian leaders, social activists and others.

offstumped said...

Arjun - More facts from Feb 28th 2002 this one by Sheela Bhatta on Rediff who generally has good credibility.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/feb/28sheela.htm

The Cabinet headed by Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi was holding a meeting to discuss the Sabarmati Express incident, when miscreants set fire to the Wakf board office.

fears of a communal clash between the Hindus and Muslims have forced the administration to impose curfew in seven areas of Baroda

Anonymous said...

hey arjun why dont u start with punishing nehru gandhi for 1947 and all riots that happened because of the illogical partition with muslims staying behind.who has been punished for bhagalpur and gujarat 1969,1985 under congress

and then punish the kashmir cms for pandit cleansing.if mufti had not realeased 4 terrorists for his dughter with congres secular supprt,that would not have happened.

and how about opunishing gandhis for 1984 and emergency.

modi did not burn the train and it was not the first communal riot. u are letting teesta an dmedia decide that 2002 was different only because muslims were retaliated against under a bjp govt unlike in tne thousands of riots before.

teesta filed a second petition after sc appointed nanavati and claered modi.so why dont we just hang modi and then pious idiots like u will be happy but will not question about swami's killers or kashmiri pandits.sit can easily be bribed and manipulated like cbi.

people like u and ankan make me puke with your pious double standards.hindus have rights in this country u know. but to people like u and ankan their shuld be different rules just like the civil code.

even islamists are better tha hindus like u.i am ashamed taht hindus produce traitors a dime a dozen and are so slavish and have lack of self respect unlike secularist and minorities who dont care about hindus but only minorities and dhimmis like u play into their hands.

Anonymous said...

BJP legislative party leader and senior cabinet minister of Punjab Mr Manoranjan Kalia has been abused and issued threats by a lowly SAD legislator. How long can we tolerate the tyranny of Akalis despite being so strong in the state? Shame on central leadership for not letting us BJP guys have a DY CM in Punjab!
Central BJP leadership please stop being the yaars (friends) of Badal and support your own party instead of Akalis.

LINKS: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20090619/main3.htm
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/BJP-boycotts-cabinet-after-MLA-Kalia-spat/articleshow/4674096.cms

Swabhimaan said...

I think that all karyakartas and new volunteers should tell the BJP that they will vote for the Congress if the BJP leaders don't come out with an honest report, a good plan for the future and good leaders. This seems to be the only way to force them to do some serious chintan.

Anonymous said...

Rediff has a good archive of news reports on the Gujarat riots this decade. Some of the theories peddled by the lefties like a 3 day delay in Army deployment are immediately contradicted by the sequence of events where the Army deployed in Ahmedabad the day after rioting started.

BTW, I did not know that Modi had resigned, but stayed on after the Central leadership refused to accept his resignation.

http://www.rediff.com/news/godhra01.htm

http://www.rediff.com/news/godhra.htm

Oldtimer said...

Hello Arjun,

I read those anti-Modi "articles" you mentioned. In several cases, the authors of those articles happened to be leftwing extremists who also justified Nandigram killings claiming that they do not discredit the leftist ideology. I am not talking about small-time leftwing riff raff who make such claims on (mostly un-read) blogs. I am talking about people like Teesta Setlavad. She issued a statement supporting the CPIM after the Nandigram genocide. It's a kind of quid pro quo. "You support me in my Islamist revolution and I will support you in your Marxist jihad". That kind of thing.

This concerns me a lot. I mean, the head honcho of Bengal himself went on record justifying the killings saying that the victims deserved it. And these article writers pretend to be obsessed with Modi (to divert attention from murders committed by their idols, perhaps?). It seems to me that most of those who vent bile on Modi happen to be leftwing loons who lack humanity and concern for human life. The campaign against Modi will have some modicum of credibility:

1. if the crusaders are not leftwingers
2. if, where they indeed are not leftwing loons, they took first on Marxist extremsits for its open and brazen defence of Nandigram killings ("they got paid in their own coin").

Did you notice that activism is missing about Nandigram killings and the killers and justifiers are walking scot-free?

But I suggest that you keep reading those articles. You should make it a habit to read them everyday, for finely-hone perspective's sake. Even leftwing nuts deserve to be read, but the key point is to keep in mind their penchant for justifying killings of innocent people.

Balaji said...

Swapanda,

Would you like to respond to Rakesh Sinha's column in the Indian Express. Prima facie, he is right. That Integral Humanism practiced by the likes of Deendayal Upadhyaya, Nanaji Deshmukh and Vajpayee is indeed Gandhian Socialism. I say Prima facie, becos he fails to mention, Brahmanism which forms the other ideological pillar of the RSS.

And he is also right in mentioning that RSS was successful in keeping Hindu Mahasabha's Fascist ideology (aka Hindutva) out. Unfortunately, the larger Sangh and more importantly BJP succumbed to Hindu Fascism (aka Hindutva) in the late 80s.

Now there are effectively 3 streams in the BJP.

1. Fascists (who pretend they are only nationalists),
2. Humanists and
3. Capitalists.

Fascists run the party and hog all the limelight, while Humanists provide ideological strength (which BJP uses very rarely) and Capitalists (typical conservative middle class) form the largest voting block of the party and also fund the party.

If anyone has trouble identifying who is who, anyone who talks of Ramjanmabhoomi, Hindutva etc is a Fascist. People who actually are part of Vidya Bharati or those who work among the tribals are Humanists [some also double up as Brahmanists when they convert tribals to Ram cult etc] and those who ridicule NREGA etc are Capitalists. A Conservative might display the above symptoms in varying degrees.

Unfortunately, the other critical component of the conservative moment, namely the libertarians are nowhere to be seen.

Despite your [Swapanda] claims of being a Capitalist (or center-right as you call it), I have never read an article from you on conservative economics. And you pride yourself on supporting Ram Janmabhoomi. You even ridiculed Humanism (and hence dismissed Deendayal, Vajpayee and Nanaji) in one of your recent posts. Further proof that Fascists hog all the limelight, while Humanists and Capitalists watch in disbelief.

ps: I hope you of the all people, would know the meaning of Fascism and hence will not take umbrage at being called a Fascist.

Shankar Iyer said...

@Oltimer

On a general note, None other social issue will ever provoke as much activism or reaction as much a community clash, in our country atleast. It does not work on the premise of 'value for human life', although ideally it should. Nandigram killings will never be seen in the same light as Godhra incident is seen, since the percieved fear is that the latter would set a precedence and have repercussions across the nation and shatter the structure of the society. The Nandigram issue, is percieved at some level as a one-off issue, nation wide.

Please do not mistake me. This is in no way to justify the hypocrisy of activists or the columnists or the top honchos in Left or the modi-obsession they carry, which you rightly pointed out.

Swabhimaan said...

"If anyone has trouble identifying who is who, anyone who talks of Ramjanmabhoomi, Hindutva etc is a Fascist."

The same can be said for you Balaji for your obsession of classifying, categorizing and labelling people and ideas. Ideas should be admired if they have merits whether they belong to the left, centre, right, 'fascist' or 'non-fascist' categories. You just cannot trash them just because someday has put labels on them that over a period of time were projected as negative.It is all a matter of perceptions Balaji.

BJP_supporter said...

Balaji, please define Brahmanism.

Anonymous said...

Why are people comparing Modi and CPIM. The CPIM is a progressive party trying to bring in alternative development model that capitalist bourgeoisie do not like. Singur and Nandigram happened because of counter-revolutionary forces. Buddhadev has a strong reason to defend people's reaction to the revisionist conspirators of Nandigram. Please read intellectuals like Praful Bidwai, Noam Chomsky and Dilip D'Souza on this complex subject instead of commenting with ignorance. There is nothing wrong in saying that the restoration of law and order in Nandigram does not discredit leftist ideology. Leftist ideology is about heralding a class-less society through class struggle. Nandigram was also class struggle where CPIM workers were falsely portrayed as aggressors. Rightwingers and Hindu fundamentalists have no respect for rule of law, that is why they are opposing CPIM's firm handling of destabilization moves. In Cuba, class differences were eradicated. China is progressing along the same path. There is no religious primitivism in these countries and even evangelical missionaries are allowed freedom. Buddhadev only said that counter-revolutionary forces were crushed the same way they tried to crush a progressive movement (Jyoti Basu started) with the help of revanchist elements like Mamata. In Gujarat Modi ordered the killing of Ehsan Jaffri and babies were pulled out from mothers' wombs. Mass graves were discovered by reputed human rights activists like Teesta Setalvad and Rais Khan. Are there any mass graves in Nandigram? Impartial media organizations like Tehelka did sting operations on Gujarat and showed the truth to the world. There is no comparison between enforcement of law and order in Nandigram and state-sponsored holocaust in Gujarat.

Sudhakar Menon

Anonymous said...

Sudhir,

The Army will do what govt tells it to do. Even media will hail it as "statesmanlike, keeping recession in view". I would have suggested that the nation should not always look towards Army for honouring the martyrs, they died as much for us as for their organisation. But unfortunately for us, we are living in a thankless era, that era is well and truly over when someone said - Kabhi shaheedon ki chitaon par lagenge har baras mele, watan pe mitne walon ka yahi bas nishaan hoga.

mpanj said...

For those amongst us who are concerned about putting an 'acceptable' face on BJP's political future (i.e. Sushma Swaraj, Yeshwant Sinha, etc.) consider this.

You could install (elect, appoint) Rahul Baba (yes Rahul - that is not a typo) as BJP's president and still not assuage leftist opinion makers.

They will find a way to ridicule and negatively define the next BJP president/PM candidate no matter how hard you try to please them.

So lets stop genuflecting before Goddesses Sonia/Barkha/Sagarika and elect a man you has the 'anatomical wherewithal' (to borrow a term from Swapanda) to take our nation to its rightful place.

Arjun said...

Offstumped, Oldtimer: Thank you for your inputs. Again, I am quite suspicious of the media in general and hence appreciate all the inputs/links you are providing. I believe Mr.Modi has been villified but for some reason was unable to get around to the notion that the mainstream media would be so unprofessional so as to target one individual so ruthlessly. Call me Naive!! BTW, I dont include Tehelka in the mainstreamm. For example, I wonder what facts came to Vir sanghvi's light that he decided to call Mr.Modi a "mass murderer". Since that comment Sanghvi has reluctantly stated that yes Mr.Modi did try and get in touch with the Hindustan Times to provide his side of the story but was never given the opportunity. Hence my purpose in asking Swapan for such inputs was only to get the facts clear from my end regarding the terrible role played by the media.

Current examples of media behaviour: It is shocking to hear Vikram Chandra equate Modi to Varun Gandhi! How nonchalanetly this is done with zero responsibility is mind boggling. It is not as if Vir Sanghvi has stopped. Shekhar Gupta continues to say that not firing Modi in 2002 was a blunder and behaves like James Bond in that he seems to have heard something from Mr.Vajpayee that no one else seems to be aware of.


Offstumped: I thank you for all the links and articles you have shared with me in all the blogs we have interacted in. I am also fully on board with you when you say that Mr.Modi must be a true Karma-Yogi and not be bothered by these issues. I do however have a vested interest in seeing him lead this country in tandem with Mr.Jaitley and hence cannot help but worry about the impact of a corrupt media on his stature. Modi should do his duty and We shall see what desinty has in store...

Anonymous said...

@Sudhakar, Teesta is respectable....that is indeed NEWS!! You missed out or deliberately ignored the false stories cooked up by her 'NGO'.
Please do a simple google search.

Anonymous said...

"In Gujarat Modi ordered the killing of Ehsan Jaffri and babies were pulled out from mothers' wombs. Mass graves were discovered by reputed human rights activists like Teesta Setalvad and Rais Khan. Are there any mass graves in Nandigram? Impartial media organizations like Tehelka did sting operations on Gujarat and showed the truth to the world. There is no comparison between enforcement of law and order in Nandigram and state-sponsored holocaust in Gujarat."

Is this utopian commie came from Mars ? Left-wing terrorist giving us moral sermons.

Sanjay said...

Sudhakar

It’s good to see a communist sympathizer here. Your presence can only add value to this forum, so we hope to hear more from you. I would like to respond to your specific questions and facts.

“Right wingers and Hindu fundamentalists have no respect for rule of law”

So you contend that left wing fundamentalists/Maoists have deep respect for the rule of law? But you can answer that at leisure. Can you name one person/incident affiliated to BJP who has broken the law of the land and the authorities have not put them on trial by the courts. Whereas, CPIM cadres have involved in intimidating/killing helpless people all over west bengal, nandigram and singur only happen to be recorded in camera. Have the authorities put the CPIM activists to trial by courts even after being caught on camera in places like singur and nandigram, let alone those who escaped media frenzy.

“Mass graves were discovered by reputed human rights activists like Teesta Setalvad and Rais Khan”

Where did the “Mass graves” disappear, do they need to be rediscovered. Teesta Setalwad’s very reputation you mentioned stands discredited by the special investigation team appointed by court.

“Impartial media organizations like Tehelka did sting operations on Gujarat and showed the truth to the world.”

It proves that there are effective checks and balances over BJP government in Gujarat, but where are the checks and balances over people like Teesta Setalwad? Despite her being exposed by the SIT, all media including Tehelka conveniently brushed her exposure under the carpet. By extension, are there any checks and balances over the so called independent media as well?

Anonymous said...

dear sd
lack of resources and honest governance is the rootcause of major problems.when wespend our money we see that we get value,but as a tax payer we are careless.whichis why even though rahul and rajeev admit that 90% of resources do not reach upto end their party is rewarded by reelection by illinformed voters and india keeps on suffering and corruption keeping india poor is a non issue.i am near to sons and relatives of few political leaders in mah.reality is that the size of leaked swiss etc money, which can now come back,is huge enough to make india adeveloped nation by all means in a shorter span.this deserve to be the real focuss and issue to solve major problems of india in far shorter span.do mms consider indians fools?each indian state is starving for resources today and poors arestarving for respactable basic needs after govt. collecting huge, huge taxes for sixty years of independence!even as a lay man i know how to screw swiss money owners with all info. and powers with mms ,but mms has only excuses for this biggest oppotunity.unfortunately elmedia misusing all its autonomy have no time for this biggest national issue of poors.more than namo gujaratis deserve credit for taking informed decision proving smarter than el media. guj. backs qualities and not parties or personalities.,so leaders should be alert.

Anonymous said...

above are the fabricated stories by wasted interests,disproved by nanavati com.such people should read latest kamats book..the most misunderstood cm of india.. having related authentic facts and figures in the national interest.it feels sorry to find such illinformed citizens.

Anonymous said...

maverick,if u are surprised an amused,then u are gullible or shortmemories.

elmedia is against bjp for last 20 yrs.they campaign against it even more than congress 24-7.
they are part of the congress team and get bribed for it.disgusting thing is they hide this unlike congress and some people dont even know about padmasris,adverts,bribes etc to these frauds.bias is a mild and inaccurate word.

elmedia gets more happy if bjp loses and almost sobs when bjp wins.even congress does not have such extreme emotions.

shameful thing is they fraud unsuspecting gullible shortmemoried redaers-viewers.

just hit the archives guys for alst 20 years and more.coorupt frud elmafia.calling tthem media
is insulting journalism and our intelligence.

Anonymous said...

shankar iyer

communal riots have happened thousnads of times since 1947.i have not seen any activism on the scale 2002 and that too post godhra only obviously because it is a bjp govt and victims were muslims.

the gujarat riots industry is special because jihadis and muslims hate a so called hindu-bjp party and kafir leader killing muslims.yeah muslims beleive modi actually killed them and many belive he caused the train fire just like they believe 9-11 was done by jews or bush.
the money strats pouring into media and teetsa and other ngo coffers.

so it is the ngo media bribe money stupid.also awards are given to nandita das for the nth post godhra movie who believe godhra had only one side and that was post godhra and godhra train was fiction unlike her movie which was far more fictional like parzania.

obviously there is a big muslim market worldwide and it can be milked.no wonder sllumdog showed a "kid dressed up like an evil looking ram as if hindus kill muslims for fun " and namby pamby hindus will accept one more insult with gratitude
unlike muslims who will violently react to any insult.

so u are way off about activism which never hapens in country with thousnads such.has any congress cm been punished ?


you say
The Nandigram issue, is percieved at some level as a one-off issue, nation wide.

by whom, the same media-mafia who sway and fool innocents like u by hiding and underplaying it.how many times has buddha outraged our media or even been reported for his pay in coin statemnet.

and now see the coverage of the current violenec in bengal.is there any outrage like in bjp states for muthalik where hair of girls was pulled with waiting cameras making it possibly staged.

activism for agenda and bribes from arabia and evangelicals only.

half knowledge is the worst and so is naivete .better watching cricket and bollywood

Anonymous said...

ndtv is not a moral science class says anon.

i agree .according to elmedia, but for muthalik,modi,varun,orissa swami, india is a morally perfect place even if there is no law and order,child labor and poverty is rampantor justice or cases gather dust for yeras and institutions are corrupt,govts are corrupt and negligent, india is # 1 in swiss bank deposits.and a gold medal is winnnable for corruption at olympics and nothing else.thanks to congress 60 yr misrule.

effigys of varun and modi have been burned in elmedia -mafia 24-7 because the elmafia y are on the side of congress-muslims against bjp and hindus especially the asserive equal rights variety and not the pseculars minorities first and only variety,as if this is also an islmaic country even if it is slowly becoming one.
mms' first claim is worse than jaziya. hindus are truly easy prey man.and worse they are idiots who join the staged selective chorus against only varun,modi and bjp.

in up 2007 campaign only bjp cd was banned while gujarat riots cds have been played for 7 years to mobilize vote.

an elmedia ed told musharaff "we will take care of bjp" and welcomed him like a hero at agra when he was campaigning for kashmir freedom and glorifying indian killers..

Anonymous said...

swapan

this is like saying their is civil war in the republican and democratic parties because many have thrown their hat in the ring during the primaries for the presidents nomination

instead of blaming bjp insiders please blame your elmedia pals.they revel in seeing a fire in the bjp even without smoke.

they want to weaken it by dividing it.

they tried their best with pitting vajpayee against advani even when it was an emulable ram-laxman kind of pair.

the cunning media is an enemy of the bjp and stoops to lies and innuendo and exagerrations all the time using divide an drule perfected by their congressmasters.

it is blind to the dynastic traditions in th congress and have the nerve to call themselves
progressive liberal when they are corrupt frauds pure and simple.

Anonymous said...

the "test your knowledge before posting " challenge

does anyone know who shobana bharatiya is?i bet many here are ignorant.

Anonymous said...

someone called sheela bhatt credible.
cant believe it.see how she reports on bjp and her gujarat 2002and 2007 anti-modi campaign

all elmedia except pioneer are bjp haters and congress teamsters.read the archive sfor bhatt's coverage and the comments under from more knowledegeable readers and nongullibe hindu readers( mnorities to a man support secular mafi media.

varsha bhosel was banished for calling a spade a spade.

swapan himself admits that elmedia boycotts anyone hwo is not their psecular jihadi types.

and these elm frauds hahve the nerve to lecture bjp-hindus about tolerance,freedoms etc while they censor the other side including redaer comments even if readers pay these guys.

see how they have free run to bash modi wantonly in gujarat unlike bengal and see how they talk to the dynasty as opposed to bjp leaders

shameless and disgusting.

Anonymous said...

Is this utopian commie came from Mars ? Left-wing terrorist giving us moral sermons.


another possibility is that he is a believer who voted for congress and would vote for osama aginst modi if he could contests.

no wonder laloo and paswan taook lookalikes with tem.

by tthe way arundhati roy's lie about jafffri's daughter has been nailed and so have the false affidavits about babies from wombs by teesta.

teesta also named a victim who died from tubercloses before the riots and also the flip flops by her assistant khan and zaheera.

this guy must be a madrasa guy either the jnu marxist kind or the arabian kind.

Ankan said...

Mr. Anonymous, I am sorry that your allegations of double standard are misplaced. I am not really hurt by an anonymous comment, but the fact is that people like you have passion but do not seem to show understanding of strategy. This is a big problem for the BJP. I guess your strategy is to just shout at everyone, tell them they are simple minded and make them agree with you. Unfortunately, I do not think it really works.

Whether Varun Gandhi said what is alleged or he did not, what would have been the right strategy? If the BJP would have pulled him out and said we do not agree with what is alleged to have said, it would have made things better. It would have given the message to the people that the party does not stand for hatred of any community. In politics, perception is reality. When the other side is driving the agenda, and is being successful at painting you as extremist what do you do? You try to fight the perception and you try to expose the hypocrisy of the other side. When you want to expose the hypocrisy of others, it pays to have least negatives of yours too. I will repeat what I said before. Shouting in rage over cold and calculated enemy does not lead to anywhere, one needs right strategy to win in the war of politics.

R S said...

To sudhakar menon,
That you are disgustingly ignorant or ‘jaahil’ is evident from your comment on the blog. Teesta, Tehelka are not impartial sources, they are funded by Islamic money, to consistently malign Narendra Modi. Did Teesta take up the anti-sikh riots cause? No.Did tehelka take it up ? No . If they were so concerned about human rights why do not they not denounce the congress party for the anti-sikh riots, where Rajiv Gandhi said, “when a tree falls the earth shakes”, thereby justifying the riots against the Sikhs. If Teesta were so concerned about human right abuses, why have they not hauled up the Congress party for the Emergency. The human rights abuses then were ten times higher then !
And who told you that Modi ordered the killing of Ehsan Jaffri? Teesta is a totally non-credible and discredited source, with a vested interest to malign Modi. There is zero evidence to prove Modi is guilty of anything. Further Praful Bidwai, Dilip D’souza are known leftists whose only job in the world is to slander and abuse the rightist movement in India

Right Angle said...

Swapan,

A nice article from tvr shenoy..

http://news.rediff.com/column/2009/jun/17/tvr-shenoy-asks-if-the-bjp-is-a-hindu-party.htm


There are lot of things that we can take from our past history..

Hindutva is about inheriting the ancient virtues of ruling..

Anonymous said...

Govindacharya's interview in Tehelka makes the most sense.

Swapands should write a response to that.

mpanj said...

Folks,

I have followed Swapanda's work since the time he worked for India Today magazine. Google news helped me reconnect with his varied weekly musings.

I have yet to come across a single article which would insinuate even a semblance of a compromise on his part.

One may occasionally disagree with his point of view, but his integrity as a journalist is impeccable.

This is a crucial time in our Nation’s history. If BJP isn’t fixed and prepared for the battle ahead India as we know it will cease to exist by 2025.

Individuals like Swapan Dasgupta are rendering a great service to help us, ordinary voters, connect with the BJP’s power centers and give us a say in shaping the future.

Please desist from succumbing to the old Indian short coming – Shoot the messenger.

mpanj said...

Folks,

what if we flip this 'For/Against Hindutva' argument.

What if all else remains the same and BJP gives up Hindutva.

We ban the word and all that is associated with it.

Will people still vote BJP?

Are we barking up the wrong tree?

Look at it this way. If BJP leadership was viewed as it was back in 1989 - of unimpeachable personal integrity - would Hindutva be a factor. Would it be a 4 letter word.

IMHO BJP lost the plot when people (rightly) began viewing it as using Hindutva to gain power and once in power abandoning its positions at the alter of ‘Coalition Dharma’.

BJP became much like the Congress - an entity, inexistence with the sole purpose of gaining and preserving power.

I have spoken to several former BJP voters – they either stayed home or voted Congress.

And the repeated refrain was ‘Kya tumhari BJP’ – You cant occupy the pedestal and compromise on every long held belief just to gain power.

Lastly, what makes NaMo such a powerful leader with such great potential is that people trust him. When he screams ‘Hu khatu nathi, khava detu nathi’ people believe it and everything that follows acquires instant credibility.

For instance, when he enforces laws against power theft, people see the greater good.

To some extent what helped Congress was MMS’ clean image. People felt – this man can do no harm. He doesn’t promote his family, doesn’t take a dime and even when he compromises its out of political compulsion, not to fill his own coffers.

Unless we address BJP’s sinking standards of personal integrity all discussions and dissections of its ideological direction are moot.

Anonymous said...

Swapanda, please do not be disheartened by these criticisms. As you can see on this blog, there are some who are happy to shout hoarse, blame everyone else and just go to the comfort of the 'ghettos'. Any suggestion that the lunatic fringe needs to be discarded is met with immense resistance and personal attacks. I think these people need some reality check.

Anonymous said...

Shobna Bharatiya is daughter of KK Birla, head of HT, a nominated memebr of RS and a Sonia darbari.
- Gopi

Anonymous said...

I find eulogy of Jyoti Basu funny. Perhaps the man was not born then but go thru the situation in WB in late 60's when he was home minister and his home guards did not listen to the CM (Ajoy Mukherjee of Bangla Congress - BTW, Pranab was Gen Sec of BC) and CM had to go on a fast against HIS OWN govt. There were daily, random killings by Naxalites and nothing happened. Please go thru the press reports on politics of Bengal in 1967-70.
This bhajanawali of Jyoti Basu is on same footing in ignorance as the one of Fake Singh Dhongi (aka Manmohan Singh) as father of reforms etc. This man was a top policy advisor of the regime of Indira Gandhi in 70's - economically the darkest and most regressive period in free India - some of the toxic injected into our system is still hurting us even after 40 years!
- Gopi

Anonymous said...

What Lavakare, Vaidya, many on this blog say shows you the source of the problem. Anyone who disagrees with thme or says something which does not conform to their orthodixy, you instantly become jaichand, enemy, dalal of congress, etc. This is no way to generate fresh ideas, bring in fresh air or efefct changes / move with times. Chating Hindutva is not like Ram Naam that will arry you over the Bav Naiya (life river). Show one single leader of RSS-BJP-VHP or assoc / subs organisations (ABVP, BD and other sundry vahinis, parishads, dals, senes) whose life is in conformity with Hindu philosophy/achar-vichar (conduct-thoghts). What a fake bunch, verily pseudo-Hindutava; hence the complete rejection by Hindus this time. Even if H-word is dropped, that will not make any changes unless they change their conduct. Signs so far are BAD!!!
- Gopi

Anonymous said...

Here is an interesting article by T.C.A SRINIVASA-RAGHAVAN in Hindu BusinessLine. He does not think Hindutva was one of main reasons for BJP's loss.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2009/06/18/stories/2009061850250800.htm

Oldtimer said...

Dear Swapan,

I am also disapoointed by Lavarake's below-the-belt attack on you. It is quite unbecoming of him. If he thought you and he are representing the same "Hindu side", then he should also know that public spats of this nature reflect poorly on that "Hindu side". I'm reminded of the (probably contrived) schism between left factions in the wake of Nandigram. Comrade Arundhati Roy made some heroic noises aginst West Bengal government and threatened to sit in a dharna agaisnt the CPIM. The dharna petered out in the end, and our fire-and-brimstone activist was nowhere to be seen. Grapevine has it that she was persuaded to chill and take it easy in the larger interest of Left Unity, by none other than international Left's patron saint Chomsky himself. There are lessons here that the ill-defined "Hindu Side" can well benefit from.

I have one caveat to offer though:

>>Engaging with the wider world is daunting but much more meaningful than gloating inside a sectarian ghetto.

Indeed, but a one-way street engagement (ie, terms of engagement are set by the other party) is surrender, not engagement. Not that in your case it is, but an Anonymous's point about how your writing takes on slightly different hues depending on the journal it appears in has struck a chord. But "negotiation" and occasional "compromise" aren't necessarily surrender either. It is easy for me to be inflexible on this matter because fortunately or unfortunately the world of media is not something I need to engage with. I appreciate, however, the fact that you run a blog and make yourself available for criticism.

Siva said...

Guys,
Dont bother replying to Sudhakar Menon. He is the best example of a troll. Not even Karl Marx would have had such a utopian view of Communism, and not even the most biased left wingers like Barkha/Sagarika would call Teesta reputed or Tehelka unbiased. Till I read that, I assumed he was just another ELM brainwashed commie. After that, I am sure he is a troll.

His only aim is to post a left wing comment on an avowedly right wing site so that all the other 99% of the readers who are sympathetic to the right will take out our cudgels and hit back. His aim at best is to portray us as reactionary. He/It is best ignored.

Likewise Swapanda, it is best that you too ignore comments from the like of Arvind Lavakare. Anyone who gets in to debate the other persons education / history / personals has already lost the war of ideas. By replying to his post, you are legitimizing his views and are giving him more attention. I must admit, after reading ur post I googled to find out the rest of his post, and his comments on your education :). You should restrict yourselves to ideas on taking the party forward. I too find some of your ideas unimplementable, and have said so in previous comments. But I don't think anyone can doubt your integrity or your commitment to the BJP - truth be told, you have been the best person defending the BJP and what it stands for on the ELM and in the papers than any official BJP spokesperson / Leader. As they say, blog on.

Prasanna said...

Hi Swapanda

Hindu lunatic fringe is disgracing itself by indulging itself in crude personalised attack

If you read Sandya Jain and other assorted Hindu hardliners spewing venom and indulging in manufacturing persecution complex one can only squirm.Apparently they want now to take inspiration from the blood thirsty Sinhalese Chauvinists by envoking some dubious historical links.Hope they have read the work of Sinhalese religious fountainhead Angana Dharmpala and his disdain for polytheism

Anyway if they want to slience the only voice of soberity and reason in the right wing space by cheap and personalised attack,'god' save us

Anonymous said...

"In the Hindu Thought yahoogroup, Mr Arvind Lavakare wrote on June 20"
----------------------------------

Can u tell us name of that group more specifically, so that we can search it ? I didn't find it on yahoo group so I'm asking. A link will be more appreciated.

Regarding ur reply to Mr. Lavakare:

I can only say u gave the rejoinder to Mr. Lavakare in the hope that it'll bolsters ur image among ur ELM friends. It might be, but in front of ur followers u've come across as a man who sees only his vested interest. U know very well that we(followers and voters)don't hold brief for ELM still in ur PS u sided with them. Swapan like BJP ur graph is also fast falling, u r slowing loosing respect of ur fans. Kash apne itni belligerency is ELM ko tackle karne mai bhi dikhayi hoti toh baat kuch alag hoti. But like a perfect right-wing dhimmi u choose to dance on their tunes.

Anonymous said...

Hi Dada,
This blog has made you more famous.
Congressi Chamcha cum bankrolled Editor is attacking you personally

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20090629&fname=BJP+%28F%29&sid=4

BJP needs more people like you.

Vikas

sanjay said...

Swapanda,
You must concede that your knowledge on diplomacy and foreign affairs is not too much more than the NDTV bimbos. During yesterdays tv debate on india’s resumption of engagement of pakistan through dialogue, salman khurshid definitely sounded statesmanlike when he said india cannot let a nuclear armed pakistan to become a failed state.

zoomindianmedia said...

Swapanda

Perhaps you really need to take seriouly calumny/innuendos which apparently is an occupational hazard. Your reader-base essentially is not a function of calumny.

Now possibly what riled down Arvind Lavkare was your use of the word "Ugly Hindu".

There are many who can take such offending terminology without batting an eyelid. Especially those who have been reading you for a long time and have a good understanding of where you stand on most issues.

Many though may not be charitable. One, they may not know you well enough. Second, they may perceive double standards as they dont see phrases like Ugly Xian or Ugly Musalmaan in the Main Stream Indian Media.

And one question which crops up is are we demeaning our belief by not questioning the sterotyping of the word "hindu" by associating it with negative words like "ugly"?

We would be interested to know your thoughts on this.

Sanjay said...

Swapanda,

Why is BJP apologetic about the disagreements within in the party?? bjp is a political party like any other, and disagreements are a part and parcel of the political dynamics, congress too had their share of dissidences and the party broke into Trinamool Cong, NCP, Tamil Manila Cong, Cong(Tiwari). But that is not the end of a mission, that’s human nature, bjp leaders are not demi-gods. And as far as revisiting and redefining ideology is concerned, if the need arises, and if at the end of that, it comes up as a better party, it should definitely be done, otherwise all this introspection adds up to nothing.

charuvak said...

Swapanda,

Mr. Lavakare, apparently has, some unresolved issues, which I strongly recommend, he discuss with his psychiatrist. :-)

I love what you are doing, despite getting a lot of abuse, of late from the 'shrill crowd'.

We cannot allow debate to be hijacked by these people, because there is danger for all of us as in 'people who are eagerly looking to see a right of center political movement emerge from this "crisis" '. We cannot allow to be tainted as the 'shrill crowd'.

We must strive and capture the large space for reasoned debate and ideas.

Anonymous said...

RS,

"Further Praful Bidwai, Dilip D’souza are known leftists whose only job in the world is to slander and abuse the rightist movement in India"

You people always blame leftists. If Modi's men did not pull foetuses out of pregnant mothers' wombs and if he did not order police to allow rioters to kill how could Praful Bidwai or Dilip D'Souza slander and abuse the rightist movement? Please note the Left always stand for communal harmony and secularism not Hindu fundamentalism. Hindu fundamentalists are exploiting Nandigram also and wrongly trying to blame socialism for it. Socialism is not Hindutva please note. Socialism is universal ideology not a regional feeling like Hindutva. Only Balaji here had the right mind to support welfare policies like NREGS. Even Congress knows CPIM will benefit if minorities and oppressed classes are not progressed on the socialist path.

Sudhakar Menon

Arjun said...

Swapan,

Please read Vinod Mehta's latest article in Outlook in which he seems to be taking a snide potshot at you. Mehta of course will gloat for the next 5 years but maybe a response is in order to his take on "Who killes the BJP"?

A Sanatani said...

To all knee jerk nationalists, here is my advice:
Ignore moderate Hindus at your peril
Hindus have remained moderate over millenia. Just because you are agitated over Jihadi types and psecular media, you cannot change this fact.

The Hindu motto is,
Before you set out to change the world, change your vision

Anonymous said...

can anon. please identify the lunatic fringe before making pious fashionable reccos to discard it? is muthalik with the bjp ?

and how is he more lunatic than the mullahs and owaisi who was to whom the congress bows with charging and banishing tasleematasleema cbse = madrasa,legal funds for batla house encounter accused even if a policeman sharma was martyred,not to mention afzal,
and casting aspersions on the encounter by congress men.

IS there a different standard for the muslim votebank elected congress and the bjp because it speaks about an india with indic peoples.

if you cant rebut get lost insteda of using vague words like lunatic in which someone could as well include the senselessnes oof your post.

Anonymous said...

swapan, you do seem to be changing your emphais.after the elctions u have written several articles that could as well have been written by the congress english media agents.eg repeatedly blaming hindutva,congratulating congress for a 28 % win based on bengal and kerala and making false conclusions like muthalik is as bad as a terrorist who kills innocents( so typical of the equal equal media-mafia) who like to spread the blame from the congress-muslim gang eg simi = bajrang dal.ofcourse when they blame modi and varun and muthalik,it is focused and undiluted.

other egs blaming varun with prompts from this same gang and calling mms honest on tv like a congress media agent which would make any memoried-knowledgeable person point to

bribe for parliament vote
criminals like soren in cabinet
missing 50,000 crores cag report
abuse of cbi for support by sp and bsp
quatrochi defreezing and cbi-argentina fake drama at taxpayer expense.
balu and raja scams
antulay's treason being accepted by mms.

the problem is that such facts shuld be the basis for conclusions unless there is a motive like there is for the
pro-congress media eg self interest,padmasris,bribes,funding from anti-hindu forces like teesta ararabia funds.

you are hurting both the bjp and its supprters by talking like the congress media when you claim to be otherwise.

their 24-7 agenda is modi and hindu and bjp bashing baesd on falsehood while they hide the truth about the congress and muslims because they get paid for it.

tehy stoop so low even to deny modi credit for gujarat progress and say he won because of communalism thus insulting crores of voters.they lie about jhabua,knatka church bombs where muslims were convicted and they hid that.they hide the swami and godhra train causes.

so they lie to serve their agenda.but do u have to help them by falsely praising mms and calling muthalik as bad as osama.

then what is the difference between u and renuka and elmafia who siad that knatka was talibanized.

calling muthalik a islamic terrorist who kills innocents is like calling a lizard as dangerous as the crocodile.

Anonymous said...

swapan

u say bjp needs to change with changing times.

does this not apply more to the congress who is still at divide and rule and islamic votebank and buy-media-propaganda dirty tricks of 60 yrs.

u say modern india abhors bjp values wihout any basis

but u keep way from saying that congress is appeasing the so modern mullahs for for last 60 yrs and still does.

is cbse= madrasa, muslim reservation ,shahbano,first claim modern enough for you like it is for those guys who invite you on tv or print just so that u play along with their cues to bash bjp,varun,muthalik while hushing up the great modern record of the congress making india such a modern country with no water and sanitation and power after 60 yrs.

give us a break man.calling bjp antiquated when they are far more modern than the congress and the mullahs who supprt them like shahi imam who said we will repeat 1947 and the mullah who issed a anti-coedmadrasa fatwa

now those are modern actions from congress supporters who put tehm in power to uphold an antiquated arab belief system.

and no one says anything about congress win or analyses it because there is no media only mafia.

u too have changed from your earlier articles.the mafia gleefully ivites u making sure evryone knows u are a bjp guy which is really not even half as true as the mafia being congress
pets fed with crumbs and bones regularly.but yet that congress elmediamafia nexus is hidden by the el mafia

Anonymous said...

ankan agin making generral comments is no substitute for analysis and wasting time.if u cant recognize bjp enemies and bjp haters like muslim vote and elemdia-mafia then u r hopeless.

are you god? how do u know that bjp would have done better without varun?varun won a few seats for bjp like his,maneka's and few others.

if you have this power u can become a millionaire by telling all parties the reason they can win or lose beforehand.

and if you think the muslims would vote for bjp without varun
or the elmedia bjp haters would
not campaign againt bjp like they have been doing for 25 years it reflects on your ignorance.

only ignorants and fools will believ the elmedia mafia nd muslims will not campaign and vote against bjp. whre have u been?atleast read up the archives and then post instead of egotistically repeating your
basesless assertions.

get it into ur head the minorities hate bjp because of its hindu association played up by the elmedia even if bjp is only talking patriotism nation and equal rights without appeasement which actually could lead to one more partition.

also it is amazing u do not realize that elmedia is a congress agent and is on islamic nd evangelical payroll with licenses in arabia and pakistan.they are enjoying the fruits from the anti-bjp industry
and also the bribes from congress.they want bjp to lose even more than congress.

they are swaying innocents like u.varun was only one issue.they had others like muthalik,pink chaddi,valentines,gujarat 2002,
kandahar,all to help the congress hide its performance issues and mobilize vote for congress.varun or no varun they would have found something before elections .cant u understand this.

u calling media biased ishows how naive u r and u help the bjp enemies this way.they want to fool people like u to target modi,varun muthalik .they are frauds and congress-anti-hindu agents disguised as media.

what about tasleema,do they bring that up.no?and muslims vote for congress because of tasleema.

u think bjp can change muslim religious hatred and media hatred for it?varun or no varun
they are enemies.they r also camppaigning to impress boss rahul.the entire varun stunt could be staged stunt just like muthalik and tehelka tapes.

i can payanyone to make tapes against my enemies.and congress has swiss bank loot of 60 yrs.

u shuld pay me for wasting my time tutoring u here.

Tathagata Mukherjee said...

Swapan'da-

1) Why blame Arvind Lavakare for a comment in a private group. Mainstream media indulged in worse things- please have a look:

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20090615/nation.htm#4

Why you guys are keeping mum? Or Arvind Lavakare an easy target?

2) How can it be called a civil war when one very important Senapati having major stake in the future fled the scene of war and headed towards colder England? (In the past, Karats also left for Europe when Singur was boiling (with media baron relative)).

Can you please explain why a senior leader much talked about by media (including you) tipped to be new face of BJP can skip such important meeting?

3) May be wrong, but an impression is created from your blog (and that of a section of media) that by bashing Hindutva you folks are trying to legitimize yourself. Much like the psuedo politicians.

Guess what- it cuts no ice. Worse, its sheer oppurtunism after the loss. Who stopped people like you, Brajesh Mishra, Jaswant Singh....Kulkarni to condemn things what you are saying now?

Considering all these, I find its eminently suitable to believe what GOVINDACHARYA stated in Tehelka. And not you guys.

Pranav said...

Re ideology: People have been arguing endlessly about Integral Humanism and Hindutva and all sorts of doctrines.

I think that discussion is pointless. India already has the moral compass it needs in the Upanishads, the Vedas, the Advaita doctrine of Adi Shankara, the Bhagavad Gita, the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, and in the works of Saints like Ramakrishna Paramhansa, Nanak, Kabir, Ramdas, Dnyaneshwar.

We do not need to invent new ideologies or labels like "Integral Humanism". Rather than an endless discussion of ideologies, far better to simply state that the BJP believes in India's ancient civilizational ethos. And then, give a list of practical action points to demonstrate how that mooring translates into actual policies.

india15august.blogspot.com said...

There is a sudden silence all over the so called 'Hindutva' world. Fortunately, there are Kandhmal and Mangalore style events suddenly coming up. Why?
I can think of three different reasons:
First, The Mobocracy leaders have suddenly developed faith, realizing that their actions were not quite 'Hindutva'.
Second, In some way or the other, these events were sponsored by unknown groups who wished to defame the BJP. They succeeded because the BJP leadership turned out to have feet of clay.
Third, The leaders are cowards. They thought they could push the BJP around. Now, confronted with a strong, 'we will not take any nonsense' political dispensation, the leaders have run back to take shelter in their little empires.

It does seem that the BJP leadership was found wanting when they were expected to defend the norms of civil society. The Mangalore situation should have been addressed in simple civil society terms: Can a group of people enter a pub and force a woman out? The answer obviously is : No. If someone tries to do this, the full majesty of law must be visible to protect the innocent and punish the guilty. This should have been the policy from minute 1. Hindutva, religion does not come in the picture.

In most cases, the question is reduced on a single sentence: Can you take law in your own hands? The answer must always be: No.

The Congress is making the same mistake in Lalgarh, West Bengal. Today's column in the Pioneer by Mr Swapan Dasgupta on Lalgarh led me to write this post.

I will put this as a comment in Swapan's blog. I wonder if Swapan protested as much on Mangalore and Kandhmal.

Just to clarify: I am a big supporter of the concept of Hindutva - it is way of life. But mobs? No way

indianrealist said...

Mr. Lavakre is right. I am a little disturbted too the furious way you are back-peddling and using terms such as "sectarian ghettos" to refer to people on the right side of the spectrum. Your heart is that of a chicken.

pramod said...

I cannot help but feel that some of the people commenting here would do extremely better than many of the BJP spokespersons.. I could not bear siddharth Nath Singh on CNN-IBN.. instead of strongly rebutting Vinod Mehta when he attributed to BJP, he put up a sorry face on TV.. I fail to understand why BJP is still not getting the message.. We need spokespersons who are assertive and articulative (someone like Nalin Kohli).. Please not someone like Siddharth Nath Singh, and definitely not Sudheendra Kulkarni.. Its hard to figure out whether Kulkarni is a BJP spokesperson or a Congress spokesperson..

Swapan da, please (I am literally begging here) convey this to the BJP top leadership..

pramod said...

I cannot help but feel that some of the people commenting here would do extremely better than many of the BJP spokespersons.. I could not bear siddharth Nath Singh on CNN-IBN.. instead of strongly rebutting Vinod Mehta when he attributed mangalore pub attacks to BJP, he put up a sorry face on TV.. I fail to understand why BJP is still not getting the message.. We need spokespersons who are assertive and articulative (someone like Nalin Kohli).. Please not someone like Siddharth Nath Singh, and definitely not Sudheendra Kulkarni.. Its hard to figure out whether Kulkarni is a BJP spokesperson or a Congress spokesperson..

Swapan da, please (I am literally begging here) convey this to the BJP top leadership..

LG said...

Actually the Govindacharya interview in Tehelka is a gem. He stuck his neck out and attempted to define Hindutva. His point about the BJP not having evolved an appropriate org culture is bang on. His point that the BJP will need to define Hindutva in political terms is a very correct observation. Included in this are many inclusive national concerns that get defined in an Indic way. Definitely worth a read for all right thinking nationalists.

Srinivas said...

Looks like the commie Sudhakar Menon is spitting out some "Teesta" propaganda like "pulling out foetesus" out of wombs. There is not a shred of evidence that anything like that happened, except fot Setalvad's fabrications. What happened in Gujarat was a communal riot, and started by those who burnt the train at Godhra. So stop this commie double speak.

I can only laugh at other commie-speak like "classwar to create a clasless society". Does any of this commie gobblegook make any sense. How can anybody create a "classless" soceity. Have you ever done a days honest work in any organization. If you did, you would know that there is always a hierarchy or class. Why even in your commie world, there is Carrot (or is it Karat), who goes on vacations to switzerland, wears Rolex watches, and there is Sudhakar Menon, some poor sod who probably campaigns in the hot sun for some commie. There is "class" difference right there for you, carrot in airconditioned rooms, and sudhakar the sod in the hot sun. Hope this helps.

Anonymous said...

have a look at this one on Arnab Goswami.. quite hilarious..

http://indiarocks.rediffiland.com/blogs/2009/06/12/Arnab-Goswami-1.html

Prasanna said...

Govindacharya 's interview was interesting.One might diagree with his economic formulations but he appears to have a remarkable understanding of political and social dynamics of the country.

The best part of the interview is his unambigious take on rogue and immoral Hindutva politics that people like Rajnath Singh have perfected wrecking great damage to the party in UP and now nationally.For this set of unscrupulous operators Hinduva is a badge to wear to hide their petty political manevouring and factional intrigues.It does not come from a deep understanding of civilizational ethos that some one like Govindacharya represents

Entire reassertion of ideological purity appears to be a exercise in scoring brownie points and winning the turf war against the voices of rason and sobriety within BJP which recognise the political irrelevance is imminent if party goes on the same track

Anonymous said...

To all knee jerk nationalists, here is my advice:

Ignore moderate Hindus at your peril
Hindus have remained moderate over millenia. Just because you are agitated over Jihadi types and psecular media, you cannot change this fact.


ROFL, this is truly a brilliant observation.

Given this, the prescription for the knee jerk nationalists is clear. Be insistent and inflexible in your demands just as the Jihadi types and psecular media are. Mark out the moderate Hindu as the enemy along with the Jihadi and psecular types. The moderate Hindus will then accomodate you just as they accomodate the Jihadi and psecular types.

If you need proof for this, just look at how the Christian Right has come to own the liberal left in the USA when it comes to their agenda - regardless of which party (Republican or Democrat) is in power.

Anonymous said...

Swapanda, you dared to criticise BJP so you will get the brickbats. BJP supporters will question your motive, your finances, your background. Simply ignore them. They didn't ask those questions last 10 years. They cannot be asking now.

Anonymous said...

For Anonymous who wrote this: "is cbse= madrasa, muslim reservation ,shahbano,first claim modern enough for you like it is for those guys who invite you on tv or print just so that u play along with their cues to bash bjp,varun,muthalik while hushing up the great modern record of the congress making india such a modern country with no water and sanitation and power after 60 yrs."



A large section of the Hindu society does not even know about half of the things like CBSE = Madrasa education. The reason obviously is the media. So, unless they know about it..it is useless to discuss whether they vote for it or against it. These things don't affect them directly. But attitudes of Muthalik types affects them directly and the noise generated by the media around such issues is deafening. After the failure of the BJP to build the Ram Mandir (however justified the reason maybe), many Hindus have started looking at the Janmbhooomi issue, Varun speeches just as vote bank politics. Hence, the BJP needs to deliver something more. Modi can bring back quite a number of voters who deserted the BJP after the Mandir was dropped for coalition politics. This is what I can say from the discussions I have had with people.

I trust Swapanda when he says Varun's speech was ugly. But it could have been handled in a different way. The context could have been explained and Varun could have explained who exactly it was meant for (unless he didn't mean it for all of Muslims). An apology for the excessively harsh words would not have been out of place. The excuse of doctored tapes does not help. No one believes it. But what happened was that the intent came out as dubious, and the BJP came out as dubious with the way this event was handled. I don't know how many people had Varun in his mind when they voted for the Congress..but the BJP could have done better for its image.

Akila said...

I am beginning to think that some of the spokespersons behave more like Congress Party left outs than core BJP personalities!

Very rarely I could see BJP spokespersons speak with passion and ridiculing Media persons (which can be done drop of the hat if you have minimum common sense plus political knowledge).

As someone says, Kulkarni, Siddharth Nath Sing are real disgrace. Looks like they are readily agreeing to anything said by TV Anchors!!!!

Anonymous said...

Arjun,

Vinod Mehta is the biggest example of the newly discovered species known as “fringe lunatics”. He must have introspected real hard having missed the bus when the establishment was doling out Padmashrees last time round before the elections to the smart guys in media who know which side of the bread is buttered. This time he seems determined to be the first in queue from the word go for the next bus. He did pull out a schumacher like start this time, but i wonder what took him so long for him to discover the magic potion of ass-kissing the establishment and watch-dogging the opposition, now when he is well over the hill. It remains to be seen where he stands in the rat race with the much younger and smarter bimbos. May be a botox injection and garnier color naturals is what he needs.

Anonymous said...

"and not even the most biased left wingers like Barkha/Sagarika would call Teesta reputed or Tehelka unbiased."

This is laughable. You people dont even know that Teesta Setalvad very frequently appears on many reputed news channels as a special guest. Teesta Setalvad and Tehelka have progressive alliances. Many progressives contributed to Teesta's struggle against Hindu fundamentalism. Many progressives contributed one lakh rupees each to set up Tehelka. Why will progressive people do this if Tehelka and Setalvad are not reputed and unbiased.

Sudhakar Menon

Anonymous said...

"We need spokespersons who are assertive and articulative (someone like Nalin Kohli)"

----------------------------------------------

Who told u Nalin Kohli is smart ? He also belongs to the list of billi ke gu leaders. During LS election I was watching one debate on CNN-IBN sister channel IBN 7 (it's a Hindi channel) where Nalin was also present when anchor (who is anti-BJP and anti-Hindu to the core) asked some tough questions to him (Nalin) then he has no reply to offer!! Yes, I'm not exaggerating, I'm swearing he didn't have any reply, after waiting for few minutes anchor turned towards Yogendra Yadav. Just think how insulted I and millions of BJP followers were feeling at that time.

Anonymous said...

"Swapanda, you dared to criticise BJP so you will get the brickbats. BJP supporters will question your motive, your finances, your background. Simply ignore them. They didn't ask those questions last 10 years. They cannot be asking now."

------------------------------------------

This is biggest tragedy of this debate when we zameeni workers post hard questions to baseless Delhi base leaders, advisers and ideologues then their supporters -- who r most often duffer IITians, IIM or foreign university graduate-- start discrediting us in this manners. I just want to inform these moron brigade (doubtingaurav, Balaji, Prasanna et al nalayak folks)that we know these peoples and their dirty tactics more than u guys. So it'd be better if u use ur talent of blabbering for floating rubbish baseless ideas. U folks have no noesis of ground reality. Now thumb suckers will teach us politics.

Anonymous said...

I find no fault in Lavakare's reply. Some hardcore fans of Swapan pouring emotional reply here to support him are just sycophant of worst kind.

mpanj said...

@Anonymous

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2009/06/18/stories/2009061850250800.htm

Thanks for posting this link. It is by far the best analysis I have seen post elections.

Oldtimer said...

Vinod Mehta in my view is a pathetic figure. He has been an Establishment flunkie for so many years, and yet has so little to show for it. I notice that most other editors do not merely advance the interests of their promoters/publishers; they build their own nests as well (kind of like folks in government employment doing "side business" during their official work time, with government resources to boot). People like Vir Sanghvi played their cards well. Even juniors like Sardesai are in line for Padma Bhushans (while positioning their wives and near and dear ones for Padmasris) but Mehta? No luck. And that despite running a cover story that said "Saint Sonia!" in response to Sonia Gandhi's inner-voice-inspired 2004 tyaag. His secularism is prisitine and his liberalism is unadulterated. Few here would know that he demanded a ban on Satanic Verses. His magazine always dispensed sec-lib wisdom with the same smoothness and flourish as your McDonald's vending machine dispensing softie ice-cream. Gay rights in India? He was there first. Women's lib? He did it several times. Bold and daring cover stories on sex, adultery and other taboo subjects? He been there and done it all before Sagarika Ghose was even born. And yet, I see no signs at all that the High Command looks at him as a club member. He disticntly gives me the impression of the outsider struggling to get inside.

I don't mean to be mean to him but let's think logically. What excuse can an Establishment journo have for not scaling the heights like his colleagues did, when he performed as well as they did on the drum-beating front?

Oldtimer said...

>>If you need proof for this, just look at how the Christian Right has come to own the liberal left in the USA when it comes to their agenda - regardless of which party (Republican or Democrat) is in power.

Brilliant observation Anonymous. Note that Obama did NOT dismantle any of Bush's "faith-based" initiatives.

Ankan said...

Anonymous sir, thanks for the tutorial. Please send me your account number and I will transfer some money to you :)

On serious note. I agree with some of the things that you say; the ELM does indulge in propaganda against the BJP and it brushes Congress's shameless peddling to radical Islamists under the carpet. However, we are discussing something else.

I am sure not God, but here are my thoughts. Varun Gandhi episode did two things: 1. it consolidated the Muslim vote even more that before and 2. it turned off a large number of Hindus who are not plugged into the whole thing like me (and certainly do not have your insight into the working of ELM).

These people trust the media more than I or you do. I have believed that there are two ways to counter the media propaganda. Firstly, the party has to do the right things. This would mean condemning extremism and not be regressive. Being pro-Hindu does not translate into being anti-Muslim, for example. Secondly, have a media strategy. The BJP has no media strategy. It believes that if it keeps humoring the talking heads in NDTV, they will give the party a fair deal. It is not going to happen. They have to be countered with agreesiveness and with ample measure of ridicule thrown in. The party should also be extremely serious about forming some alliances in the media so that there are at least a few channels that take its line. It is possible.

Anonymous said...

anonymous who calls teesta and teheka a progressive.

what a joke.These are agents of jihadis and isi and so r most like ndtv ELMDEIA MAFIA

with people like these ,osama and jiahdis can win over india without even fighting a war.

this elemdia-mafia ahs links in the islamic world and teesta tehelka,ndtv,all have business interests there.

these eds were licking mush feet at agra when he called terrorists freedom fighters.they told mush we will take care of bjp.

they love mush and hate patriot modi.why dont they join dawood in pakistan.he is better atleats he fled india.

Anonymous said...

i agrre with all those who say that bjp needs aggressive spokesmen.

i wonder about this all the time.
look at the anchors.they are so hostile the way they have aone point agenda to corner bjp,hindus,modi varun and they have been doing this for 25 years.

they are part of the islamist-evangelic-congress gang.

the irony is they pose a sneutral and some unsuspecting ignorants buy that.on the other hand the so called bjp reps are wimps including swapan.not only are they outnumbered with the 'neutral" anchor equalling 3 opponents,two psedo anti-bjp leftist fundoo intellectuals from media or jnu,and one congressman,they are just punching bags and on top they are namby pamby wimps,including swapan

the disgusting thing is truth and logic is on the side of the bjp and yet they dont fight it out.

but remebr the problem is also that the disgusting motivated elmedia mafia also cuts them off and gives them little time.

the best spokesman i belive was guy who used to show up before 2002 when he became cm.

guees who.narendra modi.he would standup with his incisive rebuttal and logic which u see till this day when he silences these punks from elmedimafia

Anonymous said...

anon who said

'The excuse of doctored tapes does not help'

how do u know? congresss has done all this before with help from tehelka.even muthalik could have been bribed.

alos as u said the media has a clear agenda to defeat the bjp and make congress win.

so naturally it will drumbeat only what helps congress and hide the development issue.

u nned to understnand that many hindus support varun and up saw some enthusiasm from many for varun and bjp after his arrest which was natural.

so the real qs is how many hindus support varun for his self-defence stand .many do.

and how do u know poeple do not believ varun when he says they were doctored.

how can u speak for crores who might hav eno problem with varuns speech even if not doctored.

bjp lost because of many other reasons not varun.

this is typical media-mafia agenda like they blamed gujarat for 2004.

bjp cannot win by appeasing muslims like the emedia mafia want.

bjp shuld not take advise form congress media jihadi agents who r out to destroy the right to dfence by hindus to help anti-hindu forces like islamists and conversionists.

media is not talking about return of anti-conversion bill
and gujarta terror bill back to the bjpstates and gujarat.

Anonymous said...

this anon who says praful bidwai and dsouza are only recating to guj 2002 is totally insane.

fact is that bidwai and souza and teesta and elmedia-mafia have been against bjp-hindus- for 25 years.it is their shop and livelihood by writing in dawn and arabia and pakistan.
there is amjor hindu bashing industry based on muslim and christian markets.

gujarta 2002 was one major business like the christmas season in the west to make these guys rich by funds from the muslim world.

an dthey are still milking it.

you anon are traitor just like them.

Anonymous said...

gopi great answer.wonder how many know affiliatins of all theese media-mafia shobana is vir saghvis boss and these people are posing neutral media to fool gullibles ignorants with a hidden agenda against bjp.

vir and ht will point to bjp and hindus falsely in jhabua,knataka church bombings,drumbeat falsehood against hindus in orissa,gujarat, etc and accuse modi and bjp falsely but will hide facts about themselves.

Anonymous said...

Oldtimer,
Yes, VM is pro-Sonia, (openly) biased, etc but you have to give him one thing: his magazine gives more space to anti-views in Letters as aslo web than any other mainstream English magazine / paper in India. Contrast this to a self-styled liberal newspaper - Telegraph, Kolkatta - which rarely prints letters that are supportive of BJP andr CPM views or show factual inaccuracies in often higly editorialised news reports!

bunty said...

"Even (Modi's) worst critics need to admit that Gujarat has made rapid strides during his tenure."

I admit to no such thing.

Anonymous said...

see how bjp-modi enemies like bunty types rampant in elmedia-mfia,congress and among minorities will not admit the truth about gujarat even if industrialist,crores of gujaratis and economic reports do

but strangely swapan a so called bjp guy will admit the falsehood that mms is honest despite all the facts to the contrary which happened and r true but media hides them and i have pointed out here
.

Anonymous said...

Oldtimer,

Vinod Mehta's secular credentials are indeed unquestionable, he even asked the question "what kind of Animal is this soft hindutva?" in national television. Now that's another feather in the secular fabric of his cap.

Anonymous said...

"Vinod Mehta's secular credentials are indeed unquestionable, he even asked the question "what kind of Animal is this soft hindutva?" in national television. Now that's another feather in the secular fabric of his cap."

ha ha.. just do a google search for 'vinod mehta biased', u can find an article written by him where he openly admits that he is a congi boot licker.. i think he wont admit that on TV until he gets a padmashri.. there is a tough competition between him and Vir Sanghvi.. Vir Sanghvi has marched ahead of VM after launching his own website!!

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