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Monday, June 29, 2009

Thinking of Iran

The past fortnight has been taken up by a preoccupation with the post-election turbulence in Iran.

I have visited Iran only once, in 1999. My visit was confined to Teheran. However, I fell in love with the country instantly. Behind the fierce graffiti that overpowered the streets and the wooden officials who seemed to be in charge of public life, there was a pulsating vibrancy which overpowers any visitor. Iran, it seemed to me a decade ago, was a modern society that was struggling to find expression.

Of course, I met only the middle classes, university professors and some professional women. These encounters, coupled with earlier experiences with Iranian students in Britain in the late-1970s--all fiercely anti-Shah--have etched a particular image of Iran in my mind.

I concede that it is a partial view and doesn't take into account the poorer and more conservative sections, those who make up President Ahmadinejad's vote bank. Indeed, the Western media appears to have seriously underestimated the support base of the present regime and the theocracy.

This may well be true but there is a substantial section of Iranian society, particularly educated women, who are totally exasperated by the petty tyrannies of a theocratic state. This election began as a faction fight among the religious establishment and a proxy war between the Spiritual Leader Ayatollah Khameini and Hosseyn Rafsanjani. But after the blatant rigging (without the manipulation there would have been a run-off between Ahmadinejad and Mousavi in the second round), it is quickly escalating into a challenge to the whole Islamic Republic.

I don't think the modernists have the necessary social clout as yet to force a regime change. But their chances of securing modest democratic gains have been ruined by the open support from the US and EU countries.

If the West supports any social movement it automatically tars it with the brush of anti-nationalism. The West doesn't really despise theocracy in Iran--they support more repressive Wahabi regimes elsewhere in West Asia. The West opposes Iran's aspirations of emerging as a regional power.

The real challenge that faces Indian diplomacy is to balance support for democratisation of Iran with a distance from the West's opposition of Iranian nationalism. India hasn't officially commented on Iran's internal developments--which is healthy. But our civil society and media hasn't done anything to distinguish us from the West's spurious indignation. I am, in fact, very surprised that our media hasn't arranged for independent coverage of Iran. We are still too dependant on western news feeds.

If India wants to be taken seriously in the world, it must make its presence felt more meaningfully. Our strategic thinkers have to be told that there is a world outside Pakistan and the US.

I have elaborated some of these points in an article in the Telegraph.

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Balaji said...

true. and I especially concur with your point that while the government can maintain a studied silence on Iran, media's silence is shameful. The only time, Indian media informed us of foreign political developments was during the Pakistan's oust Musharaff campaign. Probably becos Pakistan carries TRP value. Other than that Burma, Tibet uprisings, and global politics in general (except Obama's ofcourse) are hardly ever mentioned by the Indian media.

And I don't think Obama supported the Iranian modernists. Did you read Ann Coulter's piece on the issue? Ofcourse Obama is now more involved in fellow socialist dictator Manuel Zelaya's ouster from Honduras.

And btw we at did cover Iran. pls Check out!

charuvak said...

Excellent Swapanda. My views are identical. Having a close friend from Iran (Tabriz), someone with fierce anti-theocratic and anti-west bent, it was illuminating to find out how Iranians are so much different.

The West's attempt to contain Iran as a regional power will fail. Iran will successfully develop nuclear power and surely pave the way for weaponisation.

India must cultivate Iran. First as a counterwieght against Arab hegemony, and given India's geography for strategic reasons. The Afghan-Iran-India is an interesting relationship.

The good will India has both in Afghanistan because of the good work India has done on the ground (its well recorded) and the ancient trade relationships with Iran will work nicely.

There are no permanent friends, only permanent interests. India's interest lies in cultivating Iran carefully.

AK said...

It is unreasonable to expect Indian media to distinguish itself when large parts of it are the extension of Western media. Some of this is over ground as in CNN-IBN or LiveMint (Hindustan Times-Wall Street Journal) while other times it is underground. Now, as much of the English language media is an extension of Western media, much of the Urdu language media is an extension of Saudi/Pak media, and it is there where one should look to find positions contrary to that in the English/Western media.

Anonymous said...

Pls don't think of Iran. What we have to do with Iran ? R we in the government ? We have got lot of problems already;so we should first focus on it. Humlog apni problems ko solve nahi kar sakte Iran ki chinta karte hai, great! I remember one rustic saying in Hindi: "Ghar mai nahi hai khane ko Amma chali chugane(means dana dalna; to feed) ko". Pls don't try to be contemporary. We want insights of the party from u. I don't think ur new blog will get more than 40 to 60 comments. Post new blog soon.

Baloch View said...

There are close to 4 million Baloch in Iran and a few more in Afghanistan. They dream of a greater Balochistan comprising western Pakistan and the Iranian province of Sistan-o-Baluchestan bordering Pakistan, where they form the biggest ethnic group. There is a secessionist group called Jundallah fighting there but it takes a Sunni Islamist identity to take on Shiite Iran. This is different from the struggle on Pakistani soil, which takes a more nationalistic and ethnic form than a religious one.

Iran is the source of most of Israel's existential problems, just as Pakistan has been to India. Iran has been a major exporter of terrorism for decades. So, there is immense scope for strengthening this movement from outside (by convincing the west about going after a major source of Islamist terrorism) and from inside (by bringing the struggles of east and west Balochistan together so that they take on Iran first and Pakistan later, not both at the same time).

Uniting the Baloch on either side of the border is the key to breaking up Pakistan. A chunk of Iran will go in the process. Without this, victory in the war on terrorism will remain a pipedream.

iamfordemocracy said...

Once again, thanks for writing about an extremely important topic from the point of view of India and perhaps the whole world. Democracy was not a new idea to Iran in early 20th century. There is (now) a general agreement amongst western thinkers that US and UK together crushed (a mistake, as many now believe) Iran's democracy and installed Shah in 50's. That is why Iran's rulers are so suspicious of the two countries. It will take a few more decades to heal the wound. India is likely to play a very big part in that process.

The unwillingness of NDTV and the likes to send reporters to Iran is obvious and apalling. Much of our TV media initiatives are their masters' voice, so the apathy about Iran is not so surprising.

Aryan said...

WIth all due respect to Neda, RIP,

I just had an offtopic question Swapanji,

What will it take for the BJP Kumbhkarna to wake up and accept it needs a right wing fox type media outlet for Nationalist views? And how can the 'hindutva-wadis' go about making it a reality? Cant the likes of yourself, kanchan gupta, tarun vijay, bloggers like offstumped, nitin pai, shadow warrior, sandeep with financing from willing NRIs come together make it happen?

Would the BJP lose freebies like 09' loksabha if there was right wing media in Bharatavarsha? I dont think so. It was the weak messenger with the wrong message that cast the dye. Should have been the MOD talking about Hindutva 2.0 - Moditva = Soft Hindutva + Development.

Arun Narendhranath said...

Swapan believes that Indian politics has to mature in such a matter that it takes ideas from different democracies and not only from America. Indians/ Indian politicians do not think beyond American democracy because electronic-media in India covers developments only in the US. This was very much reflective in Advaniji's presidential style of campaigning and his campaign team's obsession with Barack Obama. Its time Indian politicians do look at people like David Cameron and other as their role models.

Hopefully Indian media takes cues from Swapan's blog and starts covering different democracies across the globe so as to enlighten the Indian politicians and electorate which will strengthen our democracy in the longer run.

Balaji said...


what? there have been attempts to create rightwing media outlets in India. except that they totally suck. for instance while everyone accuses Vir Sanghvis and Rajdeep Sardesai's, no one asks how Chandan Mitra can run a newspaper?

Daily Pioneer is out-n-out rightwing trash. New Indian Express and India Today are again rightwing outlets that have lost credibility. Several vernacular dailies like Vijaya Karnataka, Dinamani, Tughlag are plain BJP mouthpieces. One time Jain TV sucked bigtime.

Media looks liberal becos, liberal media carries credibility while conservative media has lost the same by selling out to the BJP. A safe distance would have done both the sides a lot of good.

Sachin said...

Off topic, but very pertinent to current indian politics

Vijay said...


I don't think the conservative project in India has come to maturity. A nationalist media outlet is of course, desirable. But as Swapan Dasgupta has pointed out in an earlier post, this project risks being hijacked by people with an exclusionary social agenda and limited intellectual capacity.

It's almost as if conservative/nationalist and intellectual in India are mutually exclusive. Damn shame that.

As an aside, Nitin Pai would have little sympathy for an avowedly nationalist media outlet. He's too much of a policy wonk :)

Anonymous said...

dear sd
no issue at present is as urgent and as important for india in the changed global scenario as urgently bringing swiss etc money back to can certainly do magic to dramatically improve life quality at the soonest of indian poors and middleclass.for such opportunity/results struggle by indians is worth.
it is all the more alarming for indians that the gang of cong,bjp(including namo who also used this issue and now showing smart mum),media are commited to deprive indians poors and middle class of this real big opportunity by diverting attentions to less prior central min. recently went abroad to rearrange his funds knowing that no body including mms can do todays toi guj edition one article on swiss money by mukesh .this is a discredit for namo that after encashing an issue to fool people he has done nothing to further it.i fail to understand why we should bother about bjp which leaders have so many limitations that they cannot even pursue such biggest issue of poors.better to pursue issues in detail which can change life of indians sooner,creat opinions,influences in masses .

Sanjay said...

"The West opposes Iran's aspirations of emerging as a regional power"

Not only that, the west's hostility towards Iran and and also Iraq is/was their refusal to share their oil with the west. US and european MNCs like Exxon Mobil, Chevron, Shell, BP etc. are controlling most of the 3rd worlds largest proven oil reserves in the world including Saudi arabia, UAE, Quwait, Nigeria etc. Only three of these countries have/had refused these MNCs. Russia, Iraq and Iran, they could not touch Russian oil but the reserves of Iraq and Iran were too large to be ignored, moreover their defiance had to be taught a lesson to send the "right" message to other oil producing countries. We all know what happened to Iraq, Iran felt the only option available to them is to withdraw into a shell like North Korea, though they succeeded in keeping their oil with them but paid a heavy price in terms of losing out in other areas on development like democracy.

BJP_supporter said...

Without the western media, we will not know about events like this either -

Without the western media, we will only see the beautiful people like you describe in this post.

BJP_supporter said...

"The Afghan-Iran-India is an interesting relationship"

Very interesting indeed. Check this out -
" I was told that I would have to hold the chain and jump down.

I asked for the reason for this peculiar method of entry. The caretaker was evasive at first. But after much persuasion, he disclosed that there was another tomb at the exact spot where you jumped down. There, the infidel king of Delhi, Prithviraj Chauhan, lay buried."

Anonymous said...

I follow CNN-IBN journos on twitter. These r their views on Librahan commission. One lady journo who was so enthralled by this report that she gleefully incriminated that Modi and RSS ( b'coz of Sandhi Pragya) should keep themselves ready for jail! As they were going to meet same fate as Librahan commission's r going to met. Diptosh Majumdar another Bengali journo and possible Swapan's "family friend" goes on to the extent of saying that BJP will benefit from this report as it'll unite Saffron leaders! So they don't want us to unite! Oh I understand all their hard work over the years in destroying BJP will go in gutter if they unite. Then in his second twit he said BJP is confused on Hindutva ( thanks to the likes of Swapan who started this nonsense and helped BJP's enemies) and this report could be Congress's tactical blooper. For evidence u can check screenshots of that twits here. U can see the full page image by clicking on the full image button option on the given website link. There r two images, remember.

Sachin said...

another off topic link which the BJP can take up in a subtle way

Anonymous said...

anyone seen arvind lately?hy arvind where ru ?

posting un current blog even if offtopic.

ur a true blue shoot and scoot jiahdi secular.

no analysis or facts to bacck up your opinions.
like the people u criticize who have facts and analysis to back them up.

so muslims dont vote on religion idiot.they why babri,post godhra,osama look alikes,shabano,tasleema,arresst advani,kill karsevaks,banerjee commission cbse = madrasa,legalize bangala deshis,batlahosu terrorists r called martyrs etc r always brought up secular icions like congress,laloo,mulayam,paswan etc.

they know muslims weel unlike idiot arm chair secu jihadis like u.the mullahs issue fatwas to muslims to vote for someone to defeat bjp.

if this is not abuse of religion what is.and all this in the name of fraud secularis. and to u traitor idiots all this democracy and development.yeah fatwa = development and democracy and all those votebank tactics ahve nothing to do with religion.

shame on u for wasting peoles time here without any fact based anayis to back u up.

congress fraud is 60 yr old and to u everything is honest in this country which is rated the biggest swissbank depositor and highest on corruption thans to ur congress.

come back slime and get bashed here.

Arvind said...

I have no comments on media's lack of independent coverage. I guez it does not fit in with their cost structure. I do remember reading some op-eds in the print media regarding what Indian media should do.

One thing is for sure. Strategically India DOES NOT have a dog in this fight. As Swapan has rightly said this is a fight between Rafsanjani and Mousavi on one hand and Ahmedinejad and Khamanei on the other. More importantly there seem to be some division in the council of guardians even within there are grand ayatollahs (remember Iran has about 25 of them apart from the supreme leader). But I think it is too premature and even amateurish to predict that theocracy is gonna go away. Theocracy is gonna stay. I think Ahmadinejad might be a little better off for India (being isolated by US, he might be inclined to make friendship with India). But if Iranian people and many in the clergy truly don't like him , he might not have any power to implement things. Also, not sure how nationalism (does this mean more Shiism?) in Iran helps Indian strategic interests. Why should India care about that?

Arvind said...

"Uniting the Baloch on either side of the border is the key to breaking up Pakistan. A chunk of Iran will go in the process. Without this, victory in the war on terrorism will remain a pipedream."

Whose war on terrorism?? Balochistan aint gonna happen. Pashtunistan has a better chance I think the way things are unfolding.

Arvind said...

"Iran will successfully develop nuclear power and surely pave the way for weaponisation."

This is not a good thing from India's POV. Of course, God knows what will happen in Middle East when Iran acquires nukes. It completely destabilizes the region. India should see to it that the entire arc from Yemen and Gulf of Aden to Singapore becomes her "sphere of influence". This should be the long term strategic POV. Right now Pak is the only "issue" in the list. Let's not add another country, Iran, to that. Plus India has a great rapport with Israel so "cultivating" Iran is neither feasible nor desirable.

liberal said...

It is interesting to note that the rightists have chosen to ignore the turmoil going within their camp back home and rather take up a remotely concerning issue of a foreign land.

This sudden shift of the topic adds to the frustration of grassroots who have been fooled by their torchbearers all these years. Now these sympathizers of the rightists or the so called champions of nationalism are trying to prove their worth by writing on their expertise on some foreign issue. It would have been better to face the music here rather than talk of Iran.

KR said...

Then in his second twit he said BJP is confused on Hindutva ( thanks to the likes of Swapan who started this nonsense and helped BJP's enemies)

Look, the BJP never really believed in Hindutva. Why did it not build the Ram mandir when it was in power? Even accounting for the fact that the BJP by itself did not have the votes, it could have done so by imposing an Emergency.

Even today, what is the point of pandering to moderate Hindus and sticking with India? Yesterday's moderate Hindus are today's Muslims and today's moderate Hindus will be tomorrow's Muslims. If the BJP believed in Hindutva, it'd ask for a Hindustan leaving moderate Hindus and Muslims to their own devices in India.

BJP_supporter said...

Learn from other democracies by all means, like a comment here said. But Iran is not a functional democracy by any stretch of that term. The elections are not run by a election commission. The candidates need to be approved by a Guardian council. Half of this council of 12 is directly appointed by the 'supreme leader' who is Khameini. The other half of this council is appointed by their equivalent of a 'chief justice' who is also appointed by Khameini.

So, there is really no democracy lesson here.

Since both the candidates were approved by the supreme leader, it is not even clear if he would then go to rig. He could have simply vetoed a candidate if he wanted to control the election that way.

And the talk of 'modernists' in different contexts - it keeps coming up in Indian context too - is a bit uninspiring, if you go by the facts available.

But ofcourse, only Hindus are ugly.

Anonymous said...

dear sd
the only rootcause and anti indiangroups in pak.known to mms are D gang and few related isi officers,gen.p.mush.india has provided reasonable evidences mms should have clearly asked pak.pre. to handover these people to restart peace process if pak. is genuinely interested.these are the people(aig)without whose will and help hardly any terror attack,war,kashmir agitation in india is possible which even pak. pre. know well.this will solve in reality indias major terrorelated threats .these people are also threats to pak and its democrasy.even in sarck agrements there is related provison to handover,which mms know.then why mms is clearly not spelling out specific demand of india after these many attacks ,these many deaths,potential future threats?what harm?is this not the real solution and enough harm not done?even mms must clear this indian voters/taxpayers demand to usa and is more than fair after these many innocent indians deaths and future concerns.are indian taxpayers spending huge on defence and home feel helpless?even as far as economy is concerned mms has a trackrecord to spend but hardly can catalyse growth,revenueor required investments left or noleft.he has limitations to bring swiss money of indian taxpayers back.even he is not implementing ..govt.has no business to be in business..allowing ministers to run companies and eat money.after 60 years of cong. 10 more years of mms indians have to bear!mms insteadof passing time must clearly convey pak.pre.what specific india wants(named people) ,and if not in time frame then what.this is an important ,pending,foreign policy issue for india, which shouldnot be diluted by passing time or it will rehappen to remind its importance .mms also must be able to convince this to usa the continuing losses and deep concerns of indians,or it is his failure .mms is hardly delevering anything for bringing these people to india and only watching helplessly how usa serving its cause and practically no cause of indians is served.usa may support this fair cause/concern of country like india,as there is no conflict of interest,but whether mms tried enough?

Anonymous said...


Librehan commission report has been released with a view to:
1. further polarize the electorate
2. exploit the post-electoral-loss-dissidence that has cropped up in BJP
3. undermine any re-invention process of BJP
4. convince electorate that BJP has not changed its so-called hardline hindutva mindset

Media will be used extensively to wage this battle, with the establishment observing the outcome from the sidelines. With a proper media strategy it will not be difficult to take media on its own turf, however it is more important to take the trial to the electorate instead of confining it to the media which is biased anyway, and scoring a few debating points in the media is not going to be enough due to their limited reach but it is important anyway. The more important trial is going to be the one conducted by the masses. BJP’s stand in my view should be:
1. Ram mandir issue is important, it concerns every Indian and every Hindu, but it should not be politicized.
2. BJP was and is in favour of a consensual solution which takes everyone’s aspirations into account, that it does not believe in misusing authority to force its opinion which it could have done during NDA regime but didn’t.
3. everyone agrees that the demand for a Ram mandir in Ayodhya is perfectly legitimate and justified, even Rajiv Gandhi appreciated and it.

Arvind said...


"no analysis or facts to baack up your opinions"

Yeah right!! Unlike you who has cited numerous facts and figures to back up your opinions.

"mullahs issue fatwas to muslims to vote for someone other than BJP"

hahahaha... This is the best one. First off can you povide a link to something like that? Second, even if a fatwa is issued, it is not taken as gospel (no pun intended) and some clerics can issue counter-fatwas. Third, no influnetial cleric would give such a fatwa. Fourth, you do realize that there are Muslim members in BJP like Mr. Naqvi, Shahnawaz etc., don't you?

"come back slime and get bashed here"
Now I'm shaking in my boots with fear LOLZ!! On a more serious note, your condition seems to be more accute than I initially thought and you need more urgent help.

Anyways my last post replying to you. I'm through with you.

Arvind said...

I am a BJP supporter like I'm sure Swapan is because (i) I despise dynastic rule and the practice of "Gandhi family" taking credit for anything significant (e.g. recently Worli-Bandra sea link was named Rajiv Gandhi bridge!!) (ii) I disagree with "liberalism" as an ideology which always has a "minority" group that is oppressed or suppressed by a "majority" group, tends to view Indians as groups as opposed to the BJP which views them as Indians (or so I think) (iii) Internal security I think BJP is better but Cong is slowly catching up and (iv) corruption - I think BJP is overal less corrupt (though by no means uncorrupt) than Congress. A note on corruption -- I'd rather take a govt WITH corruption which provides development for the people as opposed to one WITHOUT corruption like the Left which spreads around POVERTY! Even Chanakya to paraphrase said "In politics one shouldn't be too honest. In a forest, is the straight trees that are cut not the crooked or deformed. Also corruption in "high places" like defence deals is OK provided our defense forces get the best deal. But day-to-day corruption like in hospitals, post offices, govt. offices etc. is the worst and saps the will of the people. These places have to slowly transform by themselves, central govt can't do much in most cases.

Sad to see that nutcases like "Anonymous" are also BJP supporters.

Arvind said...


"It's almost as if conservative/nationalist and intellectual in India are mutually exclusive. Damn shame that."

Well said. The conservatives should start with the academic institutions and policy "think tanks" in India. Once the ideas are spread and the best ideas are selected from the marketplace other things will automatically follow.

Arvind said...

"Its time Indian politicians do look at people like David Cameron and other as their role models."

David who?? Who is that guy LOLZ? I think a melting pot like US is a much better role model for India than a third-rate power like UK (which I should add is increasingly becoming racist as shown with the recent emergence of the BNP).

Arvind said...

A little OT. My philosophical difference with VHP has to do with 2 things - (i) They think of people as groups with they themselves representing Hindus (ii) When they think of Indian culture they want it to be "frozen in time". The first point is kind of ironical in that Hinduism itself mostly concerns with the individual (yes I know caste system is an aberration where Hinduism tended to think of people in terms of groups, although even here remember it started out with individual's qualities or gunas). So it is odd to speak for "Hindus" as a group. But even this I can understand. The second point is more grave in that these guys do not realise that culture especially Indian itself is a complex amalgam that changes shape almost continuously. That has been the case with India for eons.

Also I don't understand why these guys are so afraid of Muslims. Even after Muslim kings ruled India for more than 500 years India still had a Hindu majority. Unlike Iran which was pretty easily Islamicized. On the contrary in case of India Hindu influence seems to have transformed Islam quite a bit with testaments like Urdu poetry, Sufism, worship of saints and shrines (eg. Nagoor darga), ghazal music, music of Muslim maestros like Zakir Hussain, Bismillah Khan, Nagoor Hanifa... I could go on but you get the drift.

charuvak said...


You cannot stop Iran from going nuclear. We should try getting off this high horse. Iranians are technically smart people. They will eventually succeed. Their is a national consensus on this. No leader from Iran will ever get elected challenging this consensus. Lets accept that as a fact.

Iran has consistently stood by India on various fora, not completely to our satisfaction but atleast not against our own interests. For instance the clerics of Qom, have advised the shias living in India and UP not to seek the restoration of Babri since it is not a mosque to begin with. While the Arabs largely abused India whenever and wherever they chose. Their continued support (finances) to various Islamic outfits in Pakistan has not been good for India and there is no effort on Arabs part to restrict it.

Iran had Omar Khayyam and a tradition of discourse and dissent (which is respected). In Iran, is democracy is flourishing, may be flawed but it is still one, while other Arab states are dictatorships.

For those of technical bent, Iran produced Lotfi Zadeh, founder of Fuzzy Logic and mathematics.

It is a tradition we can work with.

Just accept the fact Iran will be going nuclear, just matter of time. Rather have a head in the sand like the West, India must prepare for such an eventuality and cultivate Iran.

Anonymous said...

Now that the BJP's problems have been sorted out and it is well on its way to victory in 2019 with or without Hindooootva, we can afford to spend time worrying about Iran etc.

Baloch View said...

"Balochistan aint gonna happen. Pashtunistan has a better chance I think the way things are unfolding."

You cannot see it happen but it is a two step process - first free Sistan from Iran (with Israeli and American help). Then use the newly created state to make life hell for Pakistan (with India stepping in). Attack from Afghanistan (where there is a Baloch minority) and Sistan. A parallel Pashtun movement will only make life easier for Baloch liberation.

Anonymous said...

genius arvind says

Anyways my last post replying to you. I'm through with you


u bet.if i were u i would not want to lose face by being bashed and thrashed and have my idiocy exposed.better to be quiet than show up to be the medal winning jerk u r.

arvind,u are the typicalsecular-jiahdi marxist-islmist
out of scores of examples,u vainly try to rebut only the fatwa and conveniently forget all other religous
votebank tactics by secular politicians which they do because they know muslim mindset on the ground unlike comatose people like u.

and dimwit,u can barely post intellligibly here and yet u claim to know how fatwas r not taken as u now claim to speak for 18 crore muslims as if that certificate for evms was not a enough of proof of ur genius .

so why do rahul and mulayam and sonia and even indira and vp singh visit maulansas and even rajiv passed shahabano.

barking maddogs like u will not even know these historic facts,let alone be capable of remebering or analysing them.

and yet u will claim to know about evms and fatwas and have the nerve to censor posts and limit their number.typical islamist-marxist fascist secular mindset.just censor the other side fanatically when incapable of rebutting it logically and factually.just like your media mafia propaganda.

two posters took the touble to post about evms in last blog.ak gave us the code reason for faking evms and anon posted the ny times article about america passing a bill because evms are unreliable.get it dumbasss.u remeber america only when modi is denied visa under jiahdi lobby pressure.

but scum that u are,u did not even have the decency to rebut or apologize for your egotistic know all comment about evms without any shred of fact or reason.just an assertive bark from a fanatic rabid dog.

these 2 posters took the trouble to post valid facts and reasons about evms and uncouth barbarians like u dont even respond with an apology for misrepresentation and fraud on this board, just shoot and scoot and worse u will come back again and force that opinion about evms being allright on others even if wronglike media mafia fascists

shameless ,no wonder u are against patriot performer incorruptible modi.and u have all the mullahs and jihadis and islamist marxist
mafia-media on your side.

secular mafia dont have the brains to rebut,just shoot and scoot and censor the accurate wonder ur opinions are all in agreement with the mullahs who also hate modi and varun.great company there u 7th century arabian goon.

Suyash said...


"their chances of securing modest democratic gains have been ruined by the open support from the US and EU countries."

I would disagree here. I live in the US and would say reasonably keyed in on media coverage. Quite contrary to what you say, the Obama administration has been accused of being hands off in their approach towards developments in Iran. Fox news, the right wing outlet, goes to the extent of accusing the administration of being cowardly and not coming out against Iran because it feels that by doing so, it is enraging a long time US ally and Iran's sworn enemy, Israel.

US did not react at all initially, then Obama's exact words when the crisis was still in early stages he doesn't want US to be seen as "meddling" in Iran's internal affairs. Then "something has happened" in Iran elections, then after Neda imploring that protestors human rights should be taken care of. If one goes goes purely by US media commentary it has not done enough and stayed aloof from the crisis.

KR said...

Re - Liberhan

This is as good a time as any to start moving on Kashi and Mathura.

Arjun Singh said...

Now that the problems of BJP have been sorted out and it is well on its way to victory in 2019, we can concentrate on problems like Iran etc.

Anonymous said...

Re: KR
Mischief in the name of religion does not consolidate communities but benefits a few political individuals only. You don't seem to have learnt the lessons. Ask Kalyan, Advani or any other ageing hindutva front-runner how it hurts to be known as a criminal and that too at the fag end of life! And also understand why Vajpayee stood apart and earned respect.
Now, the only remaining crowd that could be shouting for another movement is of those who have some testosterone left in their balls and are not mindful of the old age woes.

In modern times, the religious matters need be settled by negotiations. But a thinking like yours has left no scope for negotiations either -in the short term at least!

Oldtimer said...

The contrast is stark:

In India, Christian fundamentalists openly say that to get elected as Indian PM a politician must have West's acceptence.

In Iran, and other Muslim-majority states, earning West's endorsement is a surefire way of ruining one's political career.

Balaji said...

Is Joshi the unofficial President of the BJP now? I have had this suspicion, which I broached here too, since the Advani-Bhagwat deal was consummated. Joshi is commenting on every issue these days. Here's my additions to the earlier list:

1. Modi met Joshi when he was in Delhi.
2. Joshi said he had [as party president] found no need for a gag order.
3. There was news that a supposed RSS meet to decide BJP president will be held in Varanasi, his constituency.
4. Joshi is the most heard BJP voice on the Liberhan report.
5. A funny report in TimesNow quoting Joshi's aides says he is not happy with Advani's escape in the Liberhan report. While Joshi-Advani one upmanship is known, since when Joshi had 'aides'? and since when they started giving briefs to the press?
6. Joshi convenes a NDA meet to discuss education and he gets Sharad Yadav, Sushma and few BJP state education ministers in attendence!
7. Now Joshi is commenting on the Gay rights verdict!

Anyway does Joshi have a problem with gay sex? or his opposition only to legislation from the bench?. What is the party position? Why would BJP have a problem with gay sex? Do the neanderthals from Nagpur have a problem with it?

Section 377 is all set to become the Shah Bano of the 21st century. BJP should be on the right side of this issue. Personal liberty and less government interference are the cornerstones of rightwing politics. While gay marriages [tax benefits] and adoption by gays [weird family for child citizens] can be opposed, is there any reason to oppose consensual sex by adults? By that yardstick, will BJP legislate against masturbation?

liberal said...


Which Christian of prominence or even of a humble stature said that Indian PM must have West's acceptance. These are some kitchen gossips and equally all targeting each other’s community.
Who cares if most of the Arab countries have much stronger ties with the U.S. than any other non-Muslim country, in spite of too much U.S. intervention in Arab. In fact, we trust and follow that modern historical account by Nehru wherein he had to demonise the British rule to brighten up his own image and cover up the complicity between firangi and the contemporary elite.
He must have been tempted to write so also because of the prevailing communal unrest. The fact is that we are still surviving on the system and the infrastructure built during the Raj.

The other fact is that the British Ruler and the Missionary were two identities opposed to each other. The former gifted Jagirs to the affluent and worthless erstwhile Rajas while the latter worked for the rights, education and health of the poor. Even Gandhi was not opposed to British staying back as equal citizens. This Christian bashing comes from that historical account by the genre of Nehru though, I consider him the most intelligent historian of our times. To compound things for the minorities in India this new hurriedly created Pakistan tried to annex Kashmir. Yet, the fact remains that Most of the Muslims and all the Christians in India are always prepared to fight with our enemies/neighbor anytime.

India always needed a strong opposition party. But alas! BJP has missed on it forever as it could not win the hearts of a majority of the secularists among the fundamentalists in the minorities. The fact is that the party itself was remote controlled by the fundamentalists who wanted to goad every member of minority with one stick. Moreover, most of your leaders had promised you the sugarcandy mountain in the name of a Hindu state. They themselves knew that a theocratic India is not possible and thats why they are in the hiding now, not able to face the grassroots.

India basically is made to be governed from the centre not right or left!

Last but not the least, for you everything evil with Christians is proselytization. I wish your leaders could also enlighten you on this dilemma and not keep you in the dark like those promises of sugarcandy mountain mentioned above; or crying wolf all the time. In one of his writings, Nehru implied that it is the duty of the wise and the intellectuals to enlighten the masses with utmost honesty.

Arvind said...

@ Oldtimer

"The contrast is stark...."

Cut the crap. Please don't compare India with a theocracy like Iran. It is insulting to Indian democracy. Not to mention that if India yearns for so much acceptance by the West, nuclear deal negotiations would not have dragged on for 3 years! India wants a good relationship with every country (including US and even Pak) but that does not mean US can take India for granted like Japan or South Korea. That's not how Indian foreign policy works!!

Arvind said...


"You cannot stop Iran from going nuclear."

I think it's still too early to make this call. As they say in the US, the jury is still out on this one.

I am also not suggesting India should OVERTLY DO SOMETHING militarily or politically within Iran. I dont think Israel is gonna sit by and watch idly. Neither are the Arab countries. But DIPLOMATICALLY India should be opposed to Iran getting nukes. The reason is very simple - Iran signed the NPT. Plus India's final aim is a world free of nukes. And Iran getting them at this stage only complicates matters. India should also be the leader in discussions on universal, verifiable and non-discriminatory disarmament of nukes.

"Iran has consistently stood by India on various fora, not completely to our satisfaction but atleast not against our own interests."

Not true. Iran has consistently voted against India and in favor of Pak in the OIC on Kashmir. Not to mention Kashmir itself has considerable Shia population. There was only one guy who voted favorably for India on Kashmir and that was Saddam. Our MEA has a long memory and does not forget these things.

"For instance the clerics of Qom, have advised the shias living in India and UP not to seek the restoration of Babri since it is not a mosque to begin with."

That's because Babri is not a Shia mosque, right? So more for their own interests I suppose.

"Their continued support (finances) to various Islamic outfits in Pakistan has not been good for India and there is no effort on Arabs part to restrict it."

Oh trust me there is Shiite financing as well for activities against India. Though may not be on the scale of Arabs. Also do not forget it was AQK who proliferate nukes from Pak to Iran.

"In Iran, is democracy is flourishing, may be flawed but it is still one, while other Arab states are dictatorships"

Iran is a theocracy. Though it might be more "democratic" than Arab states. But then so WHAT?? India should only be looking at how Indian interests will be affected. Currently India seems to be developing some bases (euphemistically called docking facilities) in Arab states like Oman and UAE. So India's rapport and relationship with these countries is very good. Not to mention recently a terrorist was nabbed recently by RAW from Oman. So don't tumble the applecart!! Long term strategic view should be - get some facilities in Oman (that covers Persian Gulf) and Yemen (that covers Gulf of Aden and the Red Sea corridor) and Malysia/Indonesia (this would cover the Malacca straits) so that India can secure the sea lanes in the Indian Ocean from Yemen to Singapore.

"Just accept the fact Iran will be going nuclear, just matter of time. "

Sorry, can't accept it. I think it is giving too much POWER UNNECESSARILY to Iran. Not that does not mean India cannot engage with Iran on other things. In fact India already seems to be doing so. But on the nuclear issue there should be no compromise!!

Anonymous said...

anon says "In modern times, the religious matters need be settled by negotiations. But a thinking like yours has left no scope for negotiations either -in the short term at least"

where have u been?the palampur bjp resolution says it shuld be settled by negotiations.

do u think the muslims will negotiate anything regarding faith.they were so intransigent about pakistan,shabano even after court evdict ,registration of marriages and the temple.

so why dont you go and have a modern conversaiton with the nearest is the 7th century mullahs who decide and most of their modern flock are also tied to the 7th century.

there is something truly wrong with hindus.all they like to do is gasbag and bhashan baji to only other hidnus,(never muslims or christians who have worse failings based on the same criteria)and that too in generalities.The minorities never have to deal with such dimwits among hindus who keep lecturing pompously AND DISTRACTING A FOCUSED FIGHT.hindus have no learning ability.the idiots ahve been conqeured by islam for 1000 years and they r lecturing varun who is like guru gobind singh.These guys would have lectured shivaji and sikhs to death who were trying to protect these very cowards whose only job is to distract their own protectors with sedating lectures till the jihadis take over.modernity only for hindus who dont need them.hell lecture the muslims who neeed it.common sense duh.

atleast a minimum requiremt for factual knowledge is needed before such general gasbagging.
see the history of comments made by islamic leaders on babri.

congress gets elected by this modern votebank(,ban tv,ban coed madrasa

its truly puzzling that many raeders do not know facts or have no recall,but just come and post here to sound goody, atrue hindu hypocritical trait.hindus r cowards and slaves and have lost 50 % land to islam and yet these idiots live in their fancy world whre the bjp is not modern.

the congress makes deals with mullahs smarty
and that is how they won.

hindutva is both inclusive and far more modern than the congress votebank strategy that fraud media will not ven discuss,just to put bjp,varun,modi on mat and stupids get swayed by this.

Incognito said...

Iran is overrated.
It's perception as a global threat is an imagination of the paranoid neocons.
I say India should keep supporting Israel on all fronts, maintain status quo with Iran, or even enhance economic cooperation with the shiites.

GM said...


Which Christian of prominence or even of a humble stature said that Indian PM must have West's acceptance.

“Modi cannot nurture prime ministerial dreams unless he is acceptable to the Western world,” said Father Cedric Prakash, an Ahmedabad-based rights activist.

GM said...


This Christian bashing comes from that historical account by the genre of Nehru though

BS. The dislike for evangelical activity has a long and distinguished history.

MK Gandhi - Chapter 10 - The Story of My Experiments With Truth

Only Christianity was at the time an exception. I developed a sort of dislike for it. And for a reason. In those days Christian missionaries used to stand in a corner near the high school and hold forth, pouring abuse on Hindus and their gods. I could not endure this. I must have stood there to hear them once only, but that was enough to dissuade me from repeating the experiment. About the same time, I heard of a well known Hindu having been converted to Christianity. It was the talk of the town that, when he was baptized, he had to eat beef and drink liquor, that he also had to change his clothes, and that thenceforth he began to go about in European costume including a hat. These things got on my nerves. Surely, thought I, a religion that compelled one to eat beef, drink liquor, and change one's own clothes did not deserve the
name. I also heard that the new convert had already begun abusing the religion of his ancestors, their customs and their country. All these things created in me a dislike for Christianity.

Arvind said...


Cedric Prakash is one guy, that too an "activist". That guys like you take him too seriously and give him too much importance only show the lack of self confidence of Hindus like you. Pathetic!!

liberal said...

This accusation against Christians can go on endlessly as it has been since the times of Gandhi as you have mentioned though, Gandhi's whole life story cannot be covered here. I have no answer for that because these things are being weighed on a tactfully tilted scale.

Majority of Christians would not agree with father Cedric just like the majority of Hindus who would not agree with their religious leaders spewing venom and violence against Christians. So you can keep on quoting from here and there to trifle the basic argument that the majority of Christians in India are erroneously accused of looking towards the west for any approval or for money for conversions. The minority of fringe elements are on the both sides of the line. But we can not paint every person of any particular community with one brush.

In my post above I have tried to focus on the issue of complicity between erstwhile rajas and firangis. Mahatma Gandhi also had a western education and had a great help from and following among the rich and the affluent. So, how is it that only a poor Indian is stopped from being educated. The problem is that for over the centuries, the affluent want to reserve the best for themselves while poor are deprived from being educated and enlightened. Gandhi's problem was also with that missionary work -ask Mayawati!

You might also be knowing that the population of Christians in India is declining. So, where are those "mass" conversions! You have overlooked the amount of work done by the missionaries in the field of health, education and science. Just compare even today how many of your children are studying in convents and other xtian schools. How many students have been converted to xtianity comparatively? None for that matter!

The basic problem is that you would want the Muslims and the xtians to be fitted somewhere within the caste system so as to curtail their diversification as has been done with the dalits. But that would not be acceptable to the minorities in India.

Sudhir said...


"Kandhamal (Orissa), Oct 26 (IANS) There has been a 66 percent growth in Christian population in Orissa’s Kandhamal region, which has seen attacks on Christians and churches. Of the 42,353 who adopted Christianity between 1991 and 2001, only two followed law to change religion.According to data available with the district collectorate, the Christian population in Kandhamal was 117,950 in the 2001 census, up from 75,597 a decade earlier.

“The Christian growth rate in the district is 66 percent as against 18.6 percent for the overall population growth in the district,” District Collector Krishan Kumar told IANS."

This is a link in - thaindian website.

Hope this gives you some answers. This is not unique to Kandhamal but I have seen this in Bangalore as well where people to avail the benfits of reservation do not officialy change their religion (one of my classmate).

GM said...


Cedric Prakash is one guy, that too an "activist". That guys like you take him too seriously and give him too much importance only show the lack of self confidence of Hindus like you.

I am honored that you give me importance. You obviously lack self confidence in your beliefs. Pathetic!!!

Anonymous said...


“Who cares if most of the Arab countries have much stronger ties with the U.S. than any other non-Muslim country, in spite of too much U.S. intervention in Arab.”

I wonder if you are a real moron or pretending to be one. Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait and some other arab country’s so called strong ties with US doesn’t justify their hegemonic intentions. Scores of Iraqis have been mercilessly butchered by the US in the two unprovoked and unjustified “Gulf wars” just to control one of the largest proven oil reserves for the energy security of the Americans.

“In fact, we trust and follow that modern historical account by Nehru wherein he had to demonise the British rule to brighten up his own image and cover up the complicity between firangi and the contemporary elite.
He must have been tempted to write so also because of the prevailing communal unrest. The fact is that we are still surviving on the system and the infrastructure built during the Raj.”

Your condition is known as “Stockholm syndrome”, wherein the victims became emotionally attached to their victimizers.
So you profess that the entire third world should voluntary accede to the British Empire, and all coloured races should once again appoint themselves as permanent slaves of the white race.
Just can’t help thinking of the development of our systems and infrastructure under our white masters??

Swabhimaan said...

Just compare even today how many of your children are studying in convents and other xtian schools. How many students have been converted to xtianity comparatively? None for that matter! think the missionaries (esp the foreign funded ones) are so dumb that they will do it where it becomes talk of the town. Look at eastern India and places like Kandhamal. They strike where there is hunger to trade religion. They don't waste their time with people like us because they know they will fail.

The VHP is at work reconverting people back to their original faith. We should appreciate them for this.
You think that casteism and/or other forms of discriminations are not practiced among Muslims and Christians? Even Arab Muslims have caste parallels...and we had racism from the White did you forget that so easily?

Here is a good article by Sandhya Jain

Anonymous said...

herer r some ugly hindus. a congress minister and 2 commenters on a toi dare hindus defend themselves an d their land and inheritance?so ugly,so noninclusive,so muthalik like,so varun like,so modi like.

toi says
>>Maharashtra’s criminal investigation department (CID) meant to probe high-profile cases will now investigate love affairs that have resulted

in marriages between Hindu girls and Muslim boys.

CID has been told to check whether Muslim boys are enticing Hindu girls as part of a ‘conspiracy’. Minister of state for home (rural) Nitin Raut had announced this in the assembly on the last day of Maharashtra’s budget session a fortnight back.

Participating in a calling attention notice, Eknath Khadse and Devendra Fadnavis had said young Muslim boys in rural areas were wooing Hindu college girls and then marrying them. According to them, this was part of a ‘conspiracy’ to increase the population of the community. Khadse even alleged that some Hindu girls had been sent to Gulf.

In his reply, Raut admitted such incidents were happening. ‘‘I will initiate an inquiry into this,’’ the minister had promised. But the opposition demanded that he order a CID probe as the issue was serious. Subsequently, Raut gave in to their demands.

Elliott,UK,says:My experience tells me that it is ALWAYS the muslim boys who chase Hindu girls and not other way round.This shows without any doubt the dreadful inferiority complex which the muslims suffer from.I have not known a single case where a Hindu boy was chasing a muslim girl, we don't do this sort of thing and long may this continue. Sharmila Thakur became a muslim and she is not missed, I feel sorry for the Thakur family. Every Hindu who converts to islam will one day answer to our gods and goddesses for their crime.India is a secular country, correct but no one should be allowed to impose their religion upon Hinduism because the latter happens to be a passive religion, always turning the other cheek. The Hindu parents should watch out for their children's behaviour and the company they keep and take appropriate action.If we are not careful Hinduism will be destroyed right in front of our eyes.Hinduism is much older than islam we must not forget this irrefutable fact.

Shrishti,Noida,says:I am putting my points again............. 1) Muslims don't allow their daughters to marry Hindu boys till Hindu boy doesn't change religion...... 2) Muslims don't allow their sons to marry Hindu girls till Hindu girl doesn't change religion .... And in all other cases, the pair who doesn't comply to above written rules, is killed, goes missing without a trace........ Did you get the point, CONVERSION to Islam is the utmost priority for Muslims..... and what a point that, converting somebody to Islam is equivalent to 5 haz visits.... this is the extremism what I raised in my last post......... We Indians (read all non Muslims), if still don't awake, then the rate at which Muslims are forcing people to convert and the rate at which Muslims are increasing their population on an average 4 kids per wife), I am sure our next generations (read all non Muslims) would be minority in India.......... TOI, Guts you publish this "truth telling post", if u can publish all extreme comments...!!!.

Anonymous said...

arvind i am not the other name is maya

but here is my sarcastic take on on some comments here.

dont u remeber muthalik and varun r as bad as the taliban.shudder shudder.

just lie down in true secular style and take it like the oh so pretty hindus in pakistan,bangladesh and kashmir.a converted or dead hindu is the prettiest hindu.

and lunatics believe that muslims do vote for development for congress and then they appoint a sacahar commission and the same congress commission concludes that after 60 yrs muslims r backward and muslims agree that congress only takes their vote.and yet they vote for congress because devlopment matters nor their religous hatred for bjp.and there r many such lunatics and secular mafia frauds only in india where the islamic votebank dominates.and see the jokers here talking about modernity,moderation ugly hindus balah balah .these jokers r wretched slavish dhimmi hindus without selfrespect and worse r so stupid as not learn and remember from history.even right wing sheep have more character.

Anonymous said...

can anyone figure out what thsi modi hater balaji is saying.he is just making innuendo and assertion based on dubious mafia-media sources that make goebbels look like the gospel.

anyone who is against modi is atraitor who is against development,incorruptibilty,hard work an d dedication,patriotisma nd nondynasticism.

balaji shuld get a goldmedal for treason.and then thrown out to join dawood where the isi can use him and hopefully all his mafia secular pals will join him,but shameless will remain here to stab and rape mother india

Anonymous said...

see how ugly hindus r resisting conversion by pretty christians.really ugly guys.communal and nonsecular.shuld be like the hindus in kashmir pak and bdesh.a converted dead hindu is the prettiest hindu.bjp varun,modi soooo bad for resisting jihad against infidels as per the koran and 7th century arabian say the oh sooo modern hindus like those posting here.


Conversion bid by armed men resented
SILCHAR, June 22 – Bhuvan Pahar, one of the most holy places in south Assam, particularly in Barak Valley, 38 km from Silchar town, has come under the threat of miscreants. Gun-totting members of a newly formed militant group, named Manmasi National Christian Army, comprising 15 rebels, has been forcing the residents of Bhuban Pahar under the threat of gun to convert to Christianity.

This information was forwarded to Sonai Police which along with the 5th Assam Rifles conducted a search operation which led to the arrest of 13 miscreants, including their commander-in-chief. Two SBBL guns and a country-made pistol along with sufficient quantity of ammunition were seized from their possession. All the miscreants were handed over to Sonai Police for further investigation.

This group of miscreants, dressed in black with a red cross on their back, along with arms, enter from Tipaimukh through Barak river by boat and mount Bhuvan Pahar. They threatened and asked the Hindu people of Tezpur village, including the priest of this famous Hindu temple, to convert into Christianity.

The problem there began when some Hmar miscreants stated themselves to be members of Manmasi National Christian Army and had started putting pressure on the Hindu residents of Bhuvan Pahar to become Christians. The local residents also said that Manmasi National Christian Army cadres had painted cross symbol on the walls of the temples with their blood.

Sources said, the pressure from the Hmar militants began at least two months back when the Congress, led by Lalthanhwala, acquired power in the neighboring State of Mizoram.

At least seven to eight Hmar youths were frequently visiting Bhuvan Pahar, which had nearly 700 Hindu people as well as eight Hindu temples. These Hmar youths approached with gun in one hand and the Bible in the other.

Sources said that the Hmar youths had a meeting with the villagers in Tezpur village on the Bhuvan Pahar and distributed Bible among the villagers. They had even built up a church in Tezpur village.

Meanwhile, Rajkumar, priest of Naga mandir on Bhuvan Pahar, told VHP members that he was forced by the Hmars to show them the tracks on the Pahar at gunpoint. Further, the Hmars posted a flag, a tabloid and a Holy Cross on the wall of one of the temples bearing date May 29, 2009.

VHP leaders were shown the video footage containing the Hindu temples which had blood-stained Holy Cross symbol. A local resident of the area said that pilgrims from various parts of the country had been visiting Bhuvan Pahar since 1816, but now Christians were forcing the Hindus to convert. These Hmar youths come from Mizoram and they have powerful patrons behind them. The VHP had asked the administration to arrange for security of the Hindu temples, priests as well as the Hindu residents there.

Anonymous said...

comment from many knew about this tehelka stunt.i used to see women unsafe reports on ndtv before elctions,which have now disappeared.i was aware of the tehelka-elmafia joint campaign pink chaddi against bjp befoer elections though.tehelka did this before gujarat elections too ,and bangaru tape whre he is forced to accept money and ofcourse media-mafia pays it for trp and congress pays mafia
and all r happy that congress is in power with more money to loot and the brains here r now focused on ugly hindus who are not pretty enough like the tarun tejpals,rajdeep,barkha
prannoy,vir etc and the prettiest hindus r those in pakistan,bdesh and kashmir dead converted or enslaved.

see how a hahrvest of gullible ignorants here now will make hindus even prettier by asking bjp to be modern like the pretty congress mullahs and evangelicals and sedating them into believing defenders like modi varun and shivaji are ugly because defending hindus is a crime when 4 boys raped a hindu woman in pilibit and modi had the nerve not to hide godhra train victims and calling media-mafias bluff who continue to pretend nothing happened at godhra station.

so-called “investigative” journalism from Sanjana-teheka who few months back faked attack on herself in Bangalore to get her name out when pub attack/anti-valentine news ruled the day. Even to this day so-called pub attack victims have not given complaint – Sanjana probably should investigate who these girls (or actors as some claim) were.


Anonymous said...

how many of you know this?

watch this and arm yourself with knowledge before jumping to conclusions.

this you tube video shows the congress-media-tehelka conspiracy to divert attention from congress misrule to fool people which is congress main achievement besides corrruption and slumdog pride in poverty award ,while they live like kings that even usa presidents cannot afford.

liberal said...

I read through the Chapter 10 as mentioned by you above. I am appalled to read Gandhi about his presumption that liquor consumption and beef eating is a mandatory ritual for Xtians. His such an observation has compelled me to reconsider my perception about him.

In fact, the film Gandhi by Attenborough has been my all time favorite. But I didn't know that he was so embittered against Xtians for reasons known to him. I think that Mayawati and Paswan are also right in saying that Mahatma Gandhi is not their model icon. At the same time I also understand that most of the educated Hindus would not agree with Gandhi on this count. Ganshi should have corrected himself on this.

Oldtimer said...

Dear "Liberal",

Opposition to Christian fundamentalists is not "Christian bashing", any more than opposition to Islamists is "Muslim bashing". I said: "In India, Christian fundamentalists openly say that to get elected as Indian PM a politician must have West's acceptence", and you have, with remarkable alacrity, managed to decipher "Christian bashing" in it. Do you lack confidence in your own faith? If not, I am intrigued why, as a self-styled liberal, you're taking up cudgels on behalf of fundamentalists, even going to the extent of conferring the mantle of victimhood on these undesirable characters. At this rate I'm worried that you'll construe any criticism of say Jerry Falwell as an attack on Jesus Christ himself.

mpanj said...


We must be careful to distinguish between Christians and Christianity.

Love Christians – Fight Christianity.

Let me explain.

Christianity’s conduct can be segregated in two broad areas:

1. Social (Schools, Hospitals, etc.)
2. Political

Sadly, the social infrastructure is deployed to achieve certain sinister political goals.

At a social level, surely Christians have done a great deal for India and Indians. But so have Parsis, Muslims, Sikhs and various Hindu sects.

For every Mother Teresa, there is a Baba Amte. The difference is this: a Hindu social worker can never marshal the resources a white ‘living saint’ can gather from the west.

Hindus do all those things you proudly (and rightly) associate with Christian missionaries. The RSS is a perfect example of this. I personally know RSS workers who have silently worked for decades to change India at the grass roots. With no expectation of fame, fortune, adulation or influence.

That this dedication is drawn from the great Hindu tradition of giving/doing without expecting any fruits in return is often ignored.

The difference is that a Baba Amte will treat a non-hindu leper with the same dedication and never ask him to change his religion.

Here’s a simple test.

I can name 3 non-hindu shrines where Hindus pray in large numbers. Show me one Hindu shrine where muslims and Christians participate in large numbers.

Why is that?

Both Islam and Christianity are based on a basic fundamental tenet.

“There is one God and all other Gods are false”.

This fundamental message has been source of great conflict, pain and suffering over the past 2000 years.

Moreover, to perpetuate their primacy, these religions will go to any lengths to obliterate signs of alternate civilizations and belief systems.

Aztecs, Incas, Native Americans, Aborigines, Goan Hindus, Kashmiri Hindus, etc. are a few living examples of the destructive forces bred, nurtured and unleashed by organized religions.

Minus the caste system Hinduism is a rare gem amongst traditional religions.

It is scientific, compassionate and far ahead of its time.

Muslim and Christian clergy will often deride Hinduism’s worship of nature (animals, plants, trees) without realizing that this was the first true environmental movement.

Similarly, the secularism practiced in India is born from its Hindu traditions – that there is one god but multiple paths to reach that god.

India is secular because it is Hindu. Because Hinduism and Hindus believe that Christ is as much an incarnation of God as Ganesha.

A belief seldom reciprocated by monotheistic religions.

Destroy Hinduism and you will destroy Indian Secularism.

Finally, by no means is Hinduism perfect. Our caste system is a blot on our society.

However, Political Christianity and Islam go out of their way to highlight Hinduism’s short comings, whilst forgetting their own shameful history and contemporary conduct.

p.s. I’m sure this conversation has only just begun. I hope Swapanda tolerates this exchange.

Anonymous said...

dear sd
in reply to arvind on corruption.
politics is an instrument to effectively serve the legitimate causes of respective people/nations/ would be more feasible to pay market determined higher salaries to publicservants including ministers than to accept huge leakages/corruption from taxpayers money.when corruption is an almost nonissuie at the top (mms buying mps to retain his power) public servants including judiciory upto bottom consider it as a license in this money oriented world which is obvious.then anormal public servant is much less interested in his routine skillful duties to his mastersi.etaxpayers/people and more inspired to do works where extra money available which work may be antipeople,illegal.the way private corporates are excelling goals,govts also can fetch fetch excellence,allowing corruption is astupid option for taxpayers rather is the rootcause of underdevoloped india ,itspoverty and related evils.major politicions in india consider politics as a fast money/power genrating carrier which is why they want corruption a nonissue.corruption has awide defination in law.corruption defeat the very cause of politics i.e removing poverty and related evils.mah. not getting good governance as corruption accepted as non issue,which people donot realise.if the size of swiss etc money is considered,which mms is deleberately not allowing to be available to indian poors,then abusing powers ,the so called honest mms infact is the most corrupt indian p.m as per law in histroy.mms has proved beyond douts that he is more loyal to ff than to indians which is dangerous for nation like india.what happen when there is a conflict of interests?

liberal said...

@Oldtimer @GM @mpunj

I would conclude by saying that the exchange of views and emotions expressed above by all of us substantiates the fact that "the mainline society of this country knows each others’ religion very well" besides their shortcomings as well. I am not the one to say that my father is stronger than yours.
So, I would say quits for the moment and initiate some topic again sometime later, if allowed by time and the Moderator, of course!

Anonymous said...

Dear Swapan,
I feel dissapointed that you dont write about issue like Naxalism, lalgarh and the lack of coherent developmental strategies to tackle these issues.

For ex. dont you think Railways should have emergency plans to connect areas which extremely naxal affected like Southern Orissa, chattisgarh etc.

Anonymous said...

"I am not the one to say that my father is stronger than yours."

yeah just allow the minorities to say that because they really walk the talk by conversions,jaziya,holy book verses.

u are gorgeous hindu.keep it up and u will become even more gorgeous like the extinct hindus in kashmir,pakistan and bangladesh.

varun is also being targeted for change from ugly to pretty hindu.islamic terrorist gangs ahve been caught twice trying to kill him but our media is hiding it for a good cause.they want him to become a pretty hinudu which to them means a slave dhimmi hindu who knows his secondary place or a dead hindu like those in kashmir,pak and india.

pretty hindus like u enjoy second class status
with such syrupy comments from u.corruption and fraud and poverty does not make u make holy statements like this one with dialogue about father in true filmy style.
dont worry u r a pretty hindu,so u have special talent for bhashan dialoge,hypocrisy and confusion.preety muslims r after ugly hindu varun and a ugly hindu bjp youth leader was attacked in mysore by another preetty muslim group.
but he is in hospital and soon he may become a pretty hindu dead (or converted)or second class jaziya payer recognizing first claim and funding haj respectfully
in glorious islamic secular india thanks to strong pretty characters like u. who make india a unique place where minorities rule.